My problems with FreeBSD-12.1

A

anonbsdguy

Hello,

FreeBSD was a nightmare to setup(because you need to configure lots of things that in linux are just there ready and configured for you). This can be good and bad. From one point of view you take control of the entire system and you know exactly what's it's dowing. On the other hand though it can be hard searching for solutions.
Personally i like this customization and freedom of FreeBSD and i am not complaining or anything like that. I am just here telling my story and please before you say anything read it all.

My problems:

1)The keyboard works partially when i boot and then i have to plug it out and in again.
2)Nvidia driver was A nightmare to setup. luckily i found this:
3)awesome window manager not working because of lua problems(Yes i had the latest version installed "lua52")
4)weird font on the alacritty terminal(i tried many things but still haven't fixed it)
5)No Ipv6(yes it is enabled in /etc/rc.conf)
 
The problems you are having are related to all the third party software you are trying to integrate into your system all at once. You first need to set up the operating system and get all those things working. The desktop should be the last thing on your mind till everything else is working.

Everything should be working on the base system right out of the box. So I'm betting you are trying to move too fast toward your desktop system. It is not that Linux has an advantage. The advantage is to their distros which are all put together for you. FreeBSD doesn't put things together for you. It would rather not assume what you want which is what Linux distros do (thus all the distro hopping there and no one ever seems to be content).
 
anonbsdguy said:
5)No Ipv6(yes it is enabled in /etc/rc.conf)
Click to expand...
What makes you think there's no IPv6? The FreeBSD Handbook has a section dedicated to IPv6. Based on that and rc.conf(5), I set up my desktop machine with IPv6:
Code: 
$ cat /etc/rc.conf
...
ifconfig_em0="DHCP"
ifconfig_em0_ipv6="inet6 accept_rtadv"
ipv6_privacy="YES"
ipv6_ipv4mapping="YES"    # IPv4 won't work without this for some reason?
rtsold_enable="YES"
...
$ ping6 -c 4 ipv6.google.com
PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2604:2d80:e600:fb00:8db2:27e2:f83b:c3c5 --> 2607:f8b0:4004:815::200e
16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4004:815::200e, icmp_seq=0 hlim=53 time=27.976 ms
16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4004:815::200e, icmp_seq=1 hlim=53 time=29.555 ms
16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4004:815::200e, icmp_seq=2 hlim=53 time=32.033 ms
16 bytes from 2607:f8b0:4004:815::200e, icmp_seq=3 hlim=53 time=26.593 ms

--- ipv6.l.google.com ping6 statistics ---
4 packets transmitted, 4 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 26.593/29.039/32.033/2.021 ms

Some applications may not use IPv6 by default. For example, if I use Firefox to search "what's my ip" on Google, I get an IPv4 address usually. If I perform the same search on ipv6.google.com explicitly, I get an IPv6 address. If you're having trouble, try asking a question to get help with it :)
 
forums.freebsd.org

FreeBSD updates?

The linux kernel is evolving at INSANE speeds. Don't get me wrong a love BSD and i am a BSD guy. But does the BSD kernel update at all?
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org
Nothing against answering questions, will happily do that – but these threads start to look like a total waste of time.
 
anonbsdguy said:
Hello,

FreeBSD was a nightmare to setup(because you need to configure lots of things that in linux are just there ready and configured for you). This can be good and bad. From one point of view you take control of the entire system and you know exactly what's it's dowing. On the other hand though it can
Click to expand...

You acknowledge there are good and bad sides to it. The good sides are you can install what you want, when you want without having to accept some other person's view of how an OS should look. This is something atypical of gnu/linux and its thousands of distributions all doing much the same with slight variations.

The bad is of course that you have to think about the installation and read about the options and become conversant with nomenclature used by FreeBSD - some of it very cryptic.

I think if you want a real easy ride when installing a desktop OS, the order of hierarchy is:
1. MacOS
2. Windows NN
3. GNU/Linux
4. FreeBSD
5. NetBSD
6. Gentoo GNU/Linux
etc.

What I'm getting at is that FreeBSD doesn't want to hold your hand and give you stuff you don't want. All those ahead of it in the list above, do.

anonbsdguy said:
My problems:

1)The keyboard works partially when i boot and then i have to plug it out and in again.
Click to expand...

And the output of dmesg and the keyboard type is?

anonbsdguy said:
2)Nvidia driver was A nightmare to setup. luckily i found this:
Click to expand...

this? Yes, nvidia can be awful, especially with certain cards. That's not FreeBSD's fault, really, it's proprietary drivers of Nvidia.

anonbsdguy said:
3)awesome window manager not working because of lua problems(Yes i had the latest version installed "lua52")
Click to expand...
Error messages?

anonbsdguy said:
4)weird font on the alacritty terminal(i tried many things but still haven't fixed it)
Click to expand...
Maybe it's a bug? I've tried alacritty myself (for a bit of fun) and it was rendering horribly.

anonbsdguy said:
5)No Ipv6(yes it is enabled in /etc/rc.conf)
Click to expand...

Again, what's the error messages?

I understand you might be frustrated and you've just come on here to vent, but unless you provide specifics, your entire message does look like a rant.
I am sure there are plenty of people here willing to help should you actually ask for help rather than complaining. ;)
 
anonbsdguy said:
1)The keyboard works partially when i boot and then i have to plug it out and in again.
Click to expand...
That's weird. Never heard of such a thing, nor has it ever happened to me. If you want help diagnosing it, probably best to post a new thread.

5)No Ipv6(yes it is enabled in /etc/rc.conf)
Click to expand...
That's also weird, it seems to work for most other people.

So you say installing freebsd is straight forward???
Click to expand...
To me it is. Note: I've never installed a GUI on any *BSD, I use it purely from the command line. And I've recently also installed Debian (which was harder), and a few other Linuxes. On the other hand, MacOS is easier, if it works (if the install doesn't work, it is very hard to debug and fix).
 
I think there's some truth to what the OP says. But hear me out.

I run Slackware Linux (current) with dwm and a few utilities providing the user interface. I just installed FreeBSD 12.1 with the same setup on a couple of machines and ran into problems that
I haven't seen in years, if ever, with Linux (Slackware and Arch), such as console switching not working, X not working on a machine with common ATI graphics hardware, and a few other things. I've solved every one of the problems, but it took some digging to do it.

There is also the crazy little problem of initializing pkg. The Handbook says to run /usr/sbin/pkg to bootstrap it. You do that and you get an error. The bootstrapping has happened, but you get a complaint that you didn't provide enough arguments. If you ran '/usr/sbin/pkg bootstrap' instead, the right thing happens and no error occurs. All that needs to be done is to add ten characters to the Handbook. I've complained about this multiple times over many years and it has not gotten fixed. That's just sloppy work, in my opinion. I did recently file a PR, but I don't think that should have been necessary. I would think normal QA would have identified this long ago.

If the OP's point is that the level of finish of FreeBSD is not at the same level as Linux, I'd agree.

But ... FreeBSD has it's own unique virtues. I believe it is more secure than Linux and ZFS is built into the system, not a recent add-on. The performance in everyday work is comparable to Linux (I'm just talking about qualitative feel here; I've made no attempt at benchmarks; but you can tell a lot just from using the system -- OpenBSD, for example, for all its own virtues, feels significantly slower than either FreeBSD, Linux, or DragonFly and the benchmarks confirm that, for the most part). The system overall feels more coherent than Linux, which is a crazy patchwork quilt of stuff pulled together from a bunch of projects who don't talk to each other and hate each other in some cases (Torvalds and Stallman). I've been using 12.1 for my daily work for a few days now and have not run into any significant problems, after getting the setup issues straightened out. In particular, I value the extra safety of ZFS and, on the machine on which I'm typing this, the ability to treat multiple SSDs as a single pool of disk space (yes, I know about btrfs, but it's much less mature than ZFS and the reviews have been mixed). By the way, I've tried FreeBSD periodically over many years and each time had to abandon it after less time than I've run 12.1, because of show-stopping problems. It could still happen, but 12.1 feels solid to me. I hope I'm right.

So the real answer, in my opinion, is that each of these systems has strengths and weaknesses and we're fortunate that we get to choose among them. We should also always keep in mind that a lot of the software we are talking about was created by people devoted to the art of making good software and they have given it away.
 
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donallen said:
I haven't seen in years, if ever, with Linux (Slackware and Arch), such as console switching not working, X not working on a machine with common ATI graphics hardware, and a few other things. I've solved every one of the problems, but it took some digging to do it.
Click to expand...
One has to distinguish between using FreeBSD as a server OS (from the command line, or even virtualized), and using it as a desktop with a GUI. The latter is where everyone runs into problems all the time. At the minimum, those stem from the fact that the GUI is not integrated into the packaged distribution, but an optional add-on. This is different from most Linux distributions (with some exceptions), which are explicitly targeted at Desktop use.

There is also the crazy little problem of initializing pkg. The Handbook says to run /usr/sbin/pkg to bootstrap it. You do that and you get an error. ... I would think normal QA would have identified this long ago.
Click to expand...
Interesting, never noticed it. But the last time I did an install from scratch was 11.2, so perhaps this is new. Sadly, unlike most big Linux distributions (which are commercial for-profit companies with paid QA staff), FreeBSD is mostly done by volunteers, and things like documentation or testing or quality is not something volunteers are easily found for.

Have you tried simple checking out the source code for the handbook and fixing this yourself (committing the fix back to the source tree)? Probably less work than sending e-mails and opening PRs.

So the real answer, in my opinion, is that each of these systems has strengths and weaknesses and we're fortunate that we get to choose among them. We should also always keep in mind that a lot of the software we are talking about was created by people devoted to the art of making good software and they have given it away.
Click to expand...
Amen.
 
ralphbsz said:
Interesting, never noticed it. But the last time I did an install from scratch was 11.2, so perhaps this is new. Sadly, unlike most big Linux distributions (which are commercial for-profit companies with paid QA staff), FreeBSD is mostly done by volunteers, and things like documentation or testing or quality is not something volunteers are easily found for.
Click to expand...

I can verify it does do this. It's not very intuitive and I can see how a novice user would be a little confused; initially.

But, overall, pkg is fairly intuitive but could use some enhancements like searching metadata etc, but that's not an issue for here.
 
donallen said:
[...]
OpenBSD, for example, for all its own virtues, feels significantly slower than either FreeBSD, Linux, or DragonFly and the benchmarks confirm that, for the most part). The system overall feels more coherent than Linux, which is a crazy patchwork quilt of stuff pulled together from a bunch of projects
Click to expand...

Ha! I have a completely pathological hatred of OpenBSD. Irrational? Absolutely.

Somehow it seems like an experimentation system where actually using it for something functional is an unintended by-product.

Ahem... back to the topic at hand.
 
ralphbsz said:
One has to distinguish between using FreeBSD as a server OS (from the command line, or even virtualized), and using it as a desktop with a GUI. The latter is where everyone runs into problems all the time. At the minimum, those stem from the fact that the GUI is not integrated into the packaged distribution, but an optional add-on. This is different from most Linux distributions (with some exceptions), which are explicitly targeted at Desktop use.


Interesting, never noticed it. But the last time I did an install from scratch was 11.2, so perhaps this is new. Sadly, unlike most big Linux distributions (which are commercial for-profit companies with paid QA staff), FreeBSD is mostly done by volunteers, and things like documentation or testing or quality is not something volunteers are easily found for.

Have you tried simple checking out the source code for the handbook and fixing this yourself (committing the fix back to the source tree)? Probably less work than sending e-mails and opening PRs.


Amen.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware of FreeBSD, at least in its pure form, as more server- than desktop-oriented. As I mentioned in my post, I don't run one of the fancy guis -- just a wm (dwm) and a few utilities (dmenu, rox-filer). So my startup problems were not related to Gnome or KDE or anything like that. The problems are really documentation and default-setting issues. For example, the console-switching problem (ctrl-alt-Fn) is just a matter of sticking hw.vga.textmode=1 in /boot/loader.conf. Why not make that the default, so it works out of the box, as it does with any credible Linux distribution and OpenBSD and Dragonfly.

Good suggestion about just fixing the missing 10 characters in the Handbook myself. I'll do it when I have a spare moment.

Your point about FreeBSD being a mostly volunteer project is certainly true, and as a now-retired manager of software projects (from which I learned that the optimum number of people to manage is zero) I am familiar with the difficulty of getting people to pay attention to documentation and QA. Hacking is so much more fun. But then you have the example of OpenBSD. Talk about level-of-finish! None of the Linuxes come close, nor does FreeBSD. OpenBSD is like a Seiko watch -- it just works. I think this is due to the project being run by Theo de Raadt. de Raadt has well-known personality deficits, to put it mildly, but he's brilliant technically and he knows how to manage that project. The quality of the software and documentation is perhaps the best of any OS in use today, though its level of complexity is well short of most modern operating systems. Unfortunately, de Raadt's extreme conservatism and a perhaps out-of-balance emphasis on security has resulted in a system that is really behind-the-times, at least for general-purpose use. That they still run the project with cvs is an indication of the mentality. And then, of course, he periodically doles out tongue-lashings on the mailing lists, many unjustified. But despite all this he has a following, no question. Project leaders with the talent of a de Raadt, or Torvalds, or Stallman are hard to find. Perhaps FreeBSD doesn't have someone quite in that league? I don't know much about how the project is managed and who is doing it.
 
I really have not the same feeling for «desktop Linux disto» and FreeBSD.
I try 4 or more linux distro to my desktop use. Weekly update of tons of unknow programs, each time I try to do solething that is not in the mindset of the distro I break it and finally major update break my system.
But more importantly for me, what I have learned that is reusable in computer science ? Close to nothing.

So I use a OS X laptop to work and I have fun with my not whel supported laptop under FreeBSD.
I made very cool script with suckless software (dwm, sxiv, ...). It is simple I learn how it work and nobody think what is cool for me.
I agree that Gentoo or Arch (maybe Void) linux will have the same taste for me. But my personnal server use FreeBSD since 9.0 and I have no complain for this use.

Fot the desktop effort, I suggest to contribute to FuryBSD as it is clean FreeBSD with tools and preset for desktop use.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
donallen Any documentation problems you find should be reported on bugzilla so they can be fixed or, possibly, find out there is just a misunderstanding and no error.
Click to expand...
You apparently missed this sentence in my post: "I did recently file a PR, but I don't think that should have been necessary."

I've since downloaded the relevant Handbook file, made the small fix to it that I think is necessary, and uploaded it as an attachment to my PR.
 
donallen said:
For example, the console-switching problem (ctrl-alt-Fn) is just a matter of sticking hw.vga.textmode=1 in /boot/loader.conf. Why not make that the default, so it works out of the box
Click to expand...

From my notes: that one disables loadable fonts - whatever that means, but I might suppose that may then be a problem for our russian. greek, thai, etc.etc. friends.
The idea is, this machine can run for any condition. It's like with a car, where you just hit the ignition and drive along, but are dependent on paved roads, fuel supply etc.. - or a landrover, where you can go cross-Sibiria, but then you carry along the snow-chains, sand sheets, cable-winch, extra fuel and other things where the casual driver doesn't even want to know they exist, and you should aquire the skill to mount them where the need arises.
It all depends on what you value.
 
PMc said:
From my notes: that one disables loadable fonts - whatever that means, but I might suppose that may then be a problem for our russian. greek, thai, etc.etc. friends.
The idea is, this machine can run for any condition. It's like with a car, where you just hit the ignition and drive along, but are dependent on paved roads, fuel supply etc.. - or a landrover, where you can go cross-Sibiria, but then you carry along the snow-chains, sand sheets, cable-winch, extra fuel and other things where the casual driver doesn't even want to know they exist, and you should aquire the skill to mount them where the need arises.
It all depends on what you value.
Click to expand...

In the case of every Linux distribution I've used plus OpenBSD plus DragonflyBSD, console switching works when the system is installed. All those systems are fully internationalized. It is ridiculous that this basic capability does not work upon installation in FreeBSD and furthermore requires some detective work on the part of the user to fix it. Set the system up so the common case works and if there's an issue with Siberia, note that in the installer docs with instructions for how to handle it.

To go as far afield as you did, this is akin to the common and extremely fallacious thinking in this country where people, ignoring what we are doing to the life-support system on the only planet we have, will buy an enormous SUV so they can take the family on vacation once a year. The rest of the year that CO2 pump is used to transport an average of 1.001 people per trip. The sensible thing, of course, is to buy something that efficiently handles the common case and deal with the uncommon one separately.
 
donallen said:
In the case of every Linux distribution I've used plus OpenBSD plus DragonflyBSD, console switching works when the system is installed.
Click to expand...

I never had a problem with the console switch - but that's probably because I didn't install since about '97.

what we are doing to the life-support system on the only planet we have,
Click to expand...
Alright, thanks for the discussion.
We will colonize other planets (and Berkeley will run the ships).
 
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The UNIX Programming Environment. 1984.
"As the UNIX system has spread, the fraction of its users who are skilled in its application has decreased.
...
[O]f course, the elegant solutions are not easy to see without some experience and understanding." (p.viii preface).
Click to expand...
 
donallen said:
For example, the console-switching problem (ctrl-alt-Fn) is just a matter of sticking hw.vga.textmode=1 in /boot/loader.conf.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure they are not related. Do you mean some issue with terminal rendering?

donallen said:
Why not make that the default
Click to expand...

Nobody is going to change defaults because of a problem they never heard of. Especially not to a fallback breaking unicode support.
 
donallen said:
You apparently missed this sentence in my post: "I did recently file a PR, but I don't think that should have been necessary."
Click to expand...
Yes I missed it but it is necessary for you to do it. Somebody should cause somebody needs to find the errors and there are no paid professionals doing the job. Even online news sites have a link somewhere asking people to point out errors. Linux and Microsoft do it. FreeBSD is no different in asking for help.

PMc said:
I never had a problem with the console switch
Click to expand...
This is the first I've ever heard of this, too, in my 16 years of using FreeBSD.
 
ralphbsz said:
That's weird. Never heard of such a thing, nor has it ever happened to me. If you want help diagnosing it, probably best to post a new thread.
Click to expand...

Its weird, I do get this very occasionally on OpenBSD when using USB mice. The dmesg reports that it is a power surge or the usb port has malfunctioned and disables the port (until I restart).
I have never got this on FreeBSD however. Perhaps the OP should check the dmesg for any similar messages.

ralphbsz said:
the GUI is not integrated into the packaged distribution, but an optional add-on. This is different from most Linux distributions (with some exceptions), which are explicitly targeted at Desktop use.
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree with this, I don't like to think of a GUI system as any different from any other software. So the fact that it needs "special" care to integrate it with the system to me just sounds like it is broken by design.

And my policy is "If it don't work, rip that crap out".

So again to the OP; try to simplify your desktop requirements and reduce your dependence on packages by using as little as possible. Stick to xterm and dwm basically ;)

donallen said:
If the OP's point is that the level of finish of FreeBSD is not at the same level as Linux, I'd agree.
Click to expand...

I don't want to be that cool kid who states that "Linux is just a kernel :cool:" but we do need to compare against similar projects with similar goals. So if we compare FreeBSD against Arch Linux, the amount of "polish" is very similar. Both result in a command prompt where you need to add the 3rd party packages you need. The only difference is that we have a nice easy user-friendly installer to get to that point ;)
 
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