Is there a real interest in pushing FreeBSD on the desktop space?

kpedersen said:
Think of it more as "bad software" haters club. If FreeBSD went this way, it would be just as terrible.


You do know that sucky GUI environments also existed as early as the 80s right? I don't think you can call that "change" anymore ;)
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So you're saying my beloved macOS GUI sucks? How dare you!

Btw, how's that display server hobby project going? I liked the idea you had going there.

hbsd said:
Does the default desktop, make this server to a desktop?
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You can call it a workstation. macOS/NeXTSTEP, OpenSolaris, HP-UX, etc were all server base systems turned workstations. But they provided easy tools for software development; whether it be drivers, apps, games, etc.
 
kpedersen said:
Specifically, you wouldn't ask Microsoft to make Gnome less shite would you?
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Well... Microsoft sponsors GNOME to some degree. Fact. The reason why according to an undisclosed Microsoft employee: Our Linux workstation compliance software only works on Ubuntu LTS, so GNOME is the defacto standard DE for employees who want to use Linux.

linuxiac.com

GNOME Is the Winner of Microsoft's FOSS Fund for May 2022

Microsoft's FOSS Fund program provides $10,000 to sponsor open source projects. For May, the award will go to GNOME.
linuxiac.com linuxiac.com
 
Beastie7 said:
Btw, how's that display server hobby project going? I liked the idea you had going there.
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Honestly, I feel that a push to Linux would be the better future for it in terms of users. Unfortunately Linux really is stuck in the Wayland/Xorg limbo (death spiral?) for the next decade so it is on pause... for now! If Linux never recovers *then* FreeBSD will be a much bigger contender for the "desktop" use-case and my entire opinion on the matter will be much more similar to yours.

It still feels like something that ~15 reasonable developers could crank out in a weekend "code jam" so I am not discounting it just yet ;)

If a developer was truly passionate about GUI (and some really do some amazing cool things), their talents would probably be wasted on FreeBSD. They would probably be going Phone, Car or (if strictly open-source) then Linux.
FreeBSD really is decades behind; not for any technical reason but simply because people who get attracted to FreeBSD do not get attracted by the graphics. Especially when Linux is so accessible.
 
kpedersen said:
Honestly, I feel that a push to Linux would be the better future for it in terms of users. Unfortunately Linux really is stuck in the Wayland/Xorg limbo (death spiral?) for the next decade so it is on pause... for now! If Linux never recovers *then* FreeBSD will be a much bigger contender for the "desktop" use-case and my entire opinion will be much more similar to yours.

It still feels like something that ~15 reasonable developers could crank out in a weekend "code jam" so I am not discounting it just yet ;)

If a developer was truly passionate about GUI (and some really do some amazing cool things), their talents would be wasted on FreeBSD. They would probably be going Phone, Car or (if strictly open-source) then Linux.
FreeBSD really is decades behind; not for any technical reason but simply because people who get attracted to FreeBSD do not get attracted by the graphics. Especially when Linux is so accessible.
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In my experience there are very few things that differ from FreeBSD and my prior OS Fedora. I can still use the same software for editing graphics, audio, video and still develop with the same tools as well as still game with steam proton. I have had issues with tearing on Intel and also have less wireless support. But I don't use wireless on my systems anyway. So I don't feel it's fair to say that FreeBSD is decades behind. In fact I have found it to be modern and equal to my previous OS where it really matters to me.

EDIT: I do find it very fun to test things to see if they work though. So the wireless card testing has been a lot of fun so far. I've actually found a lot that work...and a lot that don't. But like I said I don't really use wifi.
 
LibreQuest said:
So I don't feel it's fair to say that FreeBSD is decades behind.
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I do get that. I suppose what I mean is decades behind in terms of momentum. When people develop a new UI library, DE, WM, etc, they tend to do it for Linux and it is then later ported to FreeBSD. Same with drivers (i.e our LinuxKPI DRM stuff is just that).

This means that in terms of the "GUI desktop", FreeBSD will always be behind Linux. And that is *really* far behind because Linux is also struggling in this area (<1% of the market overall). Until Linux improves first, I don't feel FreeBSD should really divert any resources to GUI of a 0.0001% market share.

Now I do feel there might be a gap in the market in ~10 years if Linux's Wayland does horrifically break remote desktop to focus on SteamDRM Platform games. But this does remain to be seen. This is still also not quite traditional "desktop". I also predict that OpenBSD will be the one to have the better Xorg implementation for this. FreeBSD might end up straddling a half broken Xorg and a half broken Wayland (compositors).
 
kpedersen said:
I do get that. I suppose what I mean is decades behind in terms of momentum. When people develop a new UI library, DE, WM, etc, they tend to do it for Linux and it is then later ported to FreeBSD. Same with drivers (i.e our LinuxKPI DRM stuff is just that).

This means that in terms of the "GUI desktop", FreeBSD will always be behind Linux. And that is *really* far behind because Linux is also struggling in this area (<1% of the market overall). Until Linux improves first, I don't feel FreeBSD should really divert any resources to GUI of a 0.0001% market share.

Now I do feel there might be a gap in the market in ~10 years if Linux's Wayland does horrifically break remote desktop to focus on SteamDRM Platform games. But this does remain to be seen. This is still also not quite traditional "desktop". I also predict that OpenBSD will be the one to have the better Xorg implementation for this. FreeBSD might end up straddling a half broken Xorg and a half broken Wayland (compositors).
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Good point. I actually like Wayland a lot. On Linux the fps increase in steam gaming was an average 11fps. I've not tested on FreeBSD yet. But I'm guessing it will be better at gaming. No idea. I just got moved. I've had my main system in a box for four months. But agree it's behind in that regard.
 
kpedersen said:
Honestly, I feel that a push to Linux would be the better future for it in terms of users. Unfortunately Linux really is stuck in the Wayland/Xorg limbo (death spiral?) for the next decade so it is on pause... for now! If Linux never recovers *then* FreeBSD will be a much bigger contender for the "desktop" use-case and my entire opinion on the matter will be much more similar to yours.

It still feels like something that ~15 reasonable developers could crank out in a weekend "code jam" so I am not discounting it just yet ;)

If a developer was truly passionate about GUI (and some really do some amazing cool things), their talents would probably be wasted on FreeBSD. They would probably be going Phone, Car or (if strictly open-source) then Linux.
FreeBSD really is decades behind; not for any technical reason but simply because people who get attracted to FreeBSD do not get attracted by the graphics. Especially when Linux is so accessible.
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You bring up all good points. All personal biases aside. I think the FreeBSD/KDE Initiative (Area51?) could potentially draw some momentum towards FreeBSD in terms of developer/user mindshare. If the FreeBSD Foundation and KDE e.V. somehow collaborated to provide a stable desktop release, then do a little eye candy advertising; it'd probably could give Linux a run for it's money IMO. It seems to me very few Linux distro's treat KDE as a first class citizen; whereas (from what I've seen) KDE/BSD seem to have a more harmonious relationship. I believe a few of the core KDE devs also have commit rights in the tree too. Both KDE and FreeBSD provide ABI/API stability too; it'd be a good match as an alternative OS.

It's a shame iXsystem gave up on PC-BSD. That was our only hope.
 
FreeBSD is FreeBSD and that's it.
I use it as in a Desktop Environment and yes it still have some issues but it's the way it is.
I use it in one of my laptops, a very old one by the way, because I like this concept of freedom so I'm trying it and its been months and it's still here and running.
The kernel is different but everything else is the same as in Linux, LightDM, Xorg, XFCE and several Ports for other stuff.
I just feel sad I can't natively play Netflix and other DRM stuff, I mean without using Linux emulation libs.
But everything else seems to be working just fine.

I've other laptop with Manjaro Linux / XFCE environment.
Why Manjaro? Because it's a rolling release distro, install it once and that's it, just apply updates.
Why XFCE?
Because I hate Gnome 3 huge interface with its huge round corners, huge buttons, huge windows title bars, huge everything. About 25% (or more) of screen area is occupied by useless space.
Why not KDE instead? This one is easy to answer, I never liked it. Too much customization options in too many menu items and too many widgets, too much CPU, etc.
I just like to keep it simple and that's why I'm trying FreeBSD so I don't have to keep choosing on what is the next Linux distro I will install next time.

So I don't know what is your particular issue on using it as a Desktop, it works to me.
Anyway, just wanted to share this. :)
 
I'm very new to FreeBSD but I have been a moderator of a Linux oriented website for 15 years now. I have never seen comparisons of other systems like I have here in 15 years. It's just a community of support for the various Linux based systems. It's just so odd to me. 😄
 
rmomota said:
FreeBSD is FreeBSD and that's it.
I use it as in a Desktop Environment and yes it still have some issues but it's the way it is.
I use it in one of my laptops, a very old one by the way, because I like this concept of freedom so I'm trying it and its been months and it's still here and running.
The kernel is different but everything else is the same as in Linux, LightDM, Xorg, XFCE and several Ports for other stuff.
I just feel sad I can't natively play Netflix and other DRM stuff, I mean without using Linux emulation libs.
But everything else seems to be working just fine.

I've other laptop with Manjaro Linux / XFCE environment.
Why Manjaro? Because it's a rolling release distro, install it once and that's it, just apply updates.
Why XFCE?
Because I hate Gnome 3 huge interface with its huge round corners, huge buttons, huge windows title bars, huge everything. About 25% (or more) of screen area is occupied by useless space.
Why not KDE instead? This one is easy to answer, I never liked it. Too much customization options in too many menu items and too many widgets, too much CPU, etc.
I just like to keep it simple and that's why I'm trying FreeBSD so I don't have to keep choosing on what is the next Linux distro I will install next time.

So I don't know what is your particular issue on using it as a Desktop, it works to me.
Anyway, just wanted to share this. :)
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When i boot linux it's or manjaro or almalinux with xfce4 & ssdm.
.
 
ralphbsz said:
They number in the thousands. Companies like Intel, Google, IBM, RedHat, and the Linux Foundation together probably pay the salary of thousands of developers. IBM alone had many hundreds even before it acquired RedHat.
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And FreeBSD developers are making an operating system that's better!
 
zirias@ said:
The "desktop" is dead, at least when looking at the "mainstream" user interface. It once was mainstream, nowadays it's a niche.

That said, I really don't see what's there to "push". I want/need a desktop (partially because of my job). FreeBSD fulfills my needs best right now.

Yep, that's it. And this thread feels like the gazillion-th deja-vu.
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No the desktop is not dead, macOS and Windows are doing very well.

You may not be interested in the desktop but that's another thing.
 
dnb said:
And FreeBSD developers are making an operating system that's better!
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In many ways, yes! By prioritising and focusing on the right stuff.

I see so much wasted effort when I look at the Linux Foundation projects. It actually seems like they have completely lost touch with what they are meant to be doing.

Alarmingly it looks like they are massaging corporate interests rather than *anything* to do with the community and individual developers that made it what it is today. It is actually a little sick to see and I can only hope that some of the funding and support propagates down to them somehow.
 
I have missed one of the most important arguments for me in this forum thread: decentralization of the net, independence, sovereignty, autonomy of each human being — that is why I have been here in FreeBSD and NomadBSD for a year now, after escaping from MS Windows. Where, as on Mac and Android, you are now not the owner, but a "user" who is allowed to carry out certain prescribed and, increasingly, mandatory actions. Over-powered, semi-empty computers are now humming, groaning, clattering, heating up still without any task from you — because they first have to perform many tasks from the real master of your computer.

The internet was invented as a decentralized way of partisan resistance to possible Soviet occupation during the Cold War — the destruction of one or more servers would not disrupt the network. Nowadays, every home computer has enough power and capacity for not only client but also server applications. Opera Unite proved this thirteen years ago (unfortunately, the project was soon bought out and immediately cancelled).

I do not play games, do not watch Netflix movies, do not read centralized agency media. I aim to adapt my server and my home computer to the open standards for HTTP, NNTP, UUCP, SMTP, POP, IMAP, JMAP, WebDAV, WebRTC, XMPP, Fediverse, P2P communication, WWW publication, and for writing, image, audio, video content creation.

With FreeBSD, I am the real master of my computers, an independent publisher, and a sovereign internet member — thank you for your hard work, for support, and for the right OS.
 
Pecka said:
No the desktop is not dead, macOS and Windows are doing very well.
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That's just wrong. They're "doing well" in their respective niches, which can't be compared to the situation 20 years ago, when a "Desktop" was what everyone needed for things that are now more and more done on mobile/touch devices only.

Pecka said:
You may not be interested in the desktop but that's another thing.
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And that's a logical fallacy. I'm personally very interested, as also explained in this thread.
 
Interested in: a working computer, free choice of a well maintained OS

Not interested in: TWD, demonstratively being one of the 'enlightened' ones

FBSD is a force in it's own. Core is the OS, the rest is up to the individual user or sysadmin.

When you like it you'll stay, when not not.
 
Personally I find people who ask such questions are not very technical and like to talk in big hand-wavy terms about 'increased buy-in', and 'shared vision'. Moreover they seem to want to define FreeBSD's metrics for success as 'A better desktop than Linux with better support for my notebook.'

It's just another person who doesn't contribute much but wants to inject themselves in the conversation and do a 'good deed' by steering a 'project with potential' closer to their 'vision'.

I speak only for myself, but I don't think FreeBSD needs that kind of 'leadership.' If you see something you don't like, roll up your sleeves and fix it. If you don't know how, then at least try and ask for help. If you can't manage that then Linux and its plethora of choices is a more than reasonable alternative for you.

FreeBSD is doing perfectly fine on its own. GhostBSD is a perfectly fine Desktop built on top of FreeBSD. If that isn't enough for anyone then I'd argue that they're just stirring up the pot at best and at worst trying to coerce people into doing what suits their fancy.

Not every project has to be a social movement as well.
 
GhostBSD is nice but it is a one man vision project, perhaps a desktop spinoff made by the FreeBSD foundation would be more in tune with FreeBSD values and goals, without even mentioning that you can't ask for support for anything else but FreeBSD itself.

People may have different expectations and different reasons to use FreeBSD instead of Linux for instance, if those do not align with majority of the FreeBSD pro and power users doesn't mean that must ignored, in fact in that video one point that is mentioned is to lower down barriers for people that come from other experiences, and I believe this is good, for all.

Anyway I believe to make everyone happy the foundation had better to create a separate project, so nobody will feel hurt cause its toy has been touched. FreeBSD will continue to be the same and the other project would be whatever the foundation would consider the right approach.

👌
 
There are plenty of Desktop Environments and Window Managers to make whatever desktop one needs with FreeBSD as the OS. (here it runs well, several years unchanged, only updated).

Main challenge seems to be for those who want something out of the box like most Linuxes give, Wadnows seems to give. Pre-set 'freedom of choice', 'enhanced user experience', however within pre-set boundaries -- title bar colour, y'r own wallpaper (wow-factor!), taskbar bottom or disappearing, that kind of superficial stuff. I forgot 'dark mode' as a huge asset...

Most illustrative examples IMHO are questions like 'what distro does Linus use' (it must be best), and 'I want to listen music, what is the best <fill in>'. Probably the lot doesn't realize that they can change DE or WM with a few keystrokes, install all Kali software even in Hannah Montana Linux (and have the pink UI).

Here choice is yours, which is difficult in this world of brands, fanboys and home-made-pancakes-that-just-to-have-to-be-warmed-in-the-microwave.

Choice can be personal, the rest can be copied.

Distro's with commercial interests might have the incentive to serve to those needs to attract and keep customers. FreeBSD however isn't for the intellectually lazy.
You'll have to try, crash and reboot. Such is Life
 
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