How to install nosh init system on FreeBSD?

ono said:
but this is different subject
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Really bad example to use from six years ago about one person's problem that no one else could understand.
ono said:
10 sec may be not that much, but same machine Arch Linux 5.9 takes 6 seconds to Xorg SDDM graphical login prompt.
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You aren't comparing apples to apples. Is Arch doing the same things FreeBSD is doing? Don't know.
ono said:
Of course one may argue that booting faster is not a top priority, but on other hand if you need to upgrade kernel it is nice to have shortest possible reboot downtime.
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How many times a day do you upgrade your kernel? Maybe there is a far different issue going on with this user than being let on? Your priorities seem to be wildly misplaced.
 
The answer is: It depends. For many users (in particular single-user computers that are running a GUI), the init (rc, systemd, ...) part of boot is irrelevant. For many server applications it is irrelevant. For some applications it is highly relevant. Examples: kernel developers who reboot every few minutes. Large server farms, where uptime costs money, in particular where servers need to be regularly rebooted (for safety, upgrade, regulatory reasons). Systems that are sort of real-time, where reliable re-booting in 10 or 30 seconds removes the requirement for a hot standby machine. Simply globally saying "I don't care about faster boot, therefore FreeBSD doesn't need to work on it" is wrong. But saying "I greatly care about faster boot, therefore FreeBSD needs to work on it" is just as wrong. This is not a question of absolutes, not black and white.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
ono said:
but this is different subject
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Really bad example to use from six years ago about one person's problem that no one else could understand.
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That was not an example and was not intended to be used as argument. I simply had the same problem with freshly installed FreeBSD spending 30 sec on boot on preparing sendmail and someone in this thread mentioned sendmail as a potential culprit of slow boot.

drhowarddrfine said:
You aren't comparing apples to apples. Is Arch doing the same things FreeBSD is doing? Don't know.
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I know. This is different operating system, different kernel. Nevertheless I was just giving my first impression.

drhowarddrfine said:
How many times a day do you upgrade your kernel? Maybe there is a far different issue going on with this user than being let on? Your priorities seem to be wildly misplaced.
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Boot time is not my top priority, but care that things work as quick as possible/feasible. I was simply browsing FreeBSD forums looking for answer why sendmail start is stuck for 30 sec and came across this thread and another one from six years ago.

I have read through this thread (that went unfortunately bit off topic at the end). Nevertheless the reason I posted here was that I wanted to defend mjollnir's arguments that some computer users (myself) care if operating system boots quickly as there was lot of opposition saying that operating system startup speed is not relevant.

I know that original proposed idea was to use nosh for faster daemon startup. But except the problem of sendmail hostname lookup problem, I did not experience problem with daemon startup speed. My impression was that initial hardware and USB enumeration is what take bit long on FreeBSD.

Again, this is not criticism of FreeBSD, it is just sharing an impression of regular Linux/macOS/Windows user. NOTE: macOS is neither booting very fast.
 
anonymous9 said:
I'm indifferent to systemd because I have used AIX and Solaris which have had essentially what systemd is, before there was systemd.
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Didn't AIX move to SysV-like init system with release 4?

I do find it quite amusing that the Linux community was always jeering at Solaris's SMF since 2005. You could probably even backtrack through some forums and see some of their typical arrogant "why not use..." threads even then.
But yes, I believe Systemd is modelled after it. However one of the reasons I chose BSD rather than Solaris is because I always found SMF heavy, inflexible and over engineered. And even that had much less responsibility than systemd does now.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
It must be noted that 80% of all Linux users are those who only use it as a Windows replacement and a large percentage of those on most Linux forums are the young and inexperienced.
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I do find it quite amusing how an retired elderly is trying to lash out on young people who try to escape the Microsoft eco-system.

It also must also be noted that the present youth is much more experienced regarding the digital technologies than some old trolling men ever will be.

"There is no law against hypocrisy." (Ruth Bader Ginsburg)
 
ralphbsz said:
Simply globally saying "I don't care about faster boot, therefore FreeBSD doesn't need to work on it" is wrong. But saying "I greatly care about faster boot, therefore FreeBSD needs to work on it" is just as wrong.
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Systemd does not reduce the boot time, only dissimulates it. Something different would be to
make the device probing faster. But everything has a price. Programming means always to make
a compromise between very different things like speed, footprint of executable, readability of
source, easiness of making changes in source, easiness to use, functionality, etc. You cannot
have all.
 
getopt said:
I do find it quite amusing how an retired elderly is trying to lash out on young people who try to escape the Microsoft eco-system.
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Calling me retired and elderly shows how you know nothing about me. Now I'm wanting to question your age and maturity.
getopt said:
It also must also be noted that the present youth is much more experienced regarding the digital technologies than some old trolling men ever will be.
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And the Nielson Norman Group would educate you otherwise. I'll try and find a link to one of their many articles that show just the opposite.

But if your intention is to put me down and insult me, as you seem to do a lot on this forum lately, I might just ignore you.

And for that reason, I'm only going to post the first one I found, but there are more about users older than this:
Designing for Teens
Summary: Teens are (over)confident in their web abilities, but they perform worse than adults. Lower reading levels, impatience, and undeveloped research skills reduce teens’ task success and require simple, relatable sites.
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ono said:
I was simply browsing FreeBSD forums looking for answer why sendmail start is stuck for 30 sec
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I forgot to reply to this earlier. My sendmail is not stuck for 30 seconds so I don't understand the problem. We used sendmail on all our servers (about ten) back when I ran a small web dev company.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Calling me retired and elderly shows how you know nothing about me.
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I had no other choice from that what you wrote here in the past. But please, feel free to give us an upgrade on that one.
drhowarddrfine said:
And the Nielson Norman Group would educate you otherwise.
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You may share your source of education here. But please do not expect that what may fit you, is sufficient for "education" to others.
drhowarddrfine said:
But if your intention is to put me down, as you seem to do a lot on this forum lately, I might just ignore you.
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I'm not at all interested in you personally. I only react to sentences readable here.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Designing for Teens
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You lashed out on the young using "Linux" and you called those on Linux forums "inexperienced".

Now after being criticized you want to justify your opinion with a study on 100 users between the ages of 13 and 17 which were called "wired teens" there. The study is about website usability and on how to improve Webdesign for a better commercial targeting on this group.

Now how comes that you apply these findings for young Linux forum users?
Don't you see the difference?
 
unitrunker said:
The rc init system takes 8 seconds on my Core 2 Duo. Total boot time is longer. Swapping rc for nosh can only improve on the 8 seconds. The rest of the boot time is device discovery, device initialization, and waiting on external services like DHCP. Nosh can do nothing for these other parts of the boot time.
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Is it feasible to use parallel computing to find the device?
 
ono said:
Hi there, I have just created an account to respond to this thread. I was never FreeBSD user, however I regularly use Linux, Mac and Windows. I was recently playing with FreeBSD and the first thing that I have noticed was that it takes pretty long to boot it into working console in vanilla system. I was curious if this is normal, then I found this thread. Therefore I'd like to defend mjollnir arguments, that it does matter how long it takes to boot or reboot the OS, at least this is the first thing you notice when you try FreeBSD.
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From <https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2021-07-2021-09/#_boot_performance_improvements>:

Boot Performance Improvements​

…
Colin Percival is coordinating an effort to speed up the FreeBSD boot process. …
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TSLOG boot profiling​

  • flame graphs
  • a little advice from Colin Percival
 
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