FuryBSD is dead..

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Again, if you understood the implications of doing such a thing; you'd understand why this doesn't exist yet. The FreeBSD Handbook acts as an appropriate mediation between use case scenarios. Let me know when you need a shovel to get your head out.
Actually, it DOES exist. It's existed for quite some time with various BSD groups. The only issue was that FBSD isn't providing it. Thankfully, other groups exist & have patched up this deficiency. GBSD exists now. More users are starting to see FBSD for what it's become -merely an ingredient.
 

Jose

Daemon

Reaction score: 965
Messages: 1,170

You are now making up arguments.
Nope, I was quoting you. Directly.
Lots of improvements never make it to upstream. This isn't a solid argument.
For example?
Your argument amounts to little more than "we don't want things to improve for other users, because it's just fine for us right now". That's a bullshit argument. Telling people to go use something else is crap.
I haven't made an argument at all. Please tone down your language. Invective does not lead to productive discussion. That is why you're here, right?
 

Argentum

Aspiring Daemon

Reaction score: 285
Messages: 598

I never said that FBSD needed hype nor bandwagoning. You're intentionally missing the point. Users have simply been asking for better installers & for the installer to install a system that boots into a desktop. That's what they've been asking for. None of you have been able to give a real reason for why those things shouldn't be provided. Instead, you keep bringing up bullshit that have absolutely nothing to do with what those users have been asking for.
Do not agree. Installer seems to be the smallest problem here. Many people just install once and use a long time after that. Text based installer has it's strengths. For example installing on a virtual machine through terminal.
 

kpedersen

Son of Beastie

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Messages: 2,941

I will have to go slower for you then. Lets simply tackle your first point.

Not really. FreeBSD is an entire OS. Linux is only a kernel. Also, PS4 isn't used everywhere. But more importantly, I never made reference to ANYTHING being used everywhere -those were YOUR words. You're attempting to make an argument against something that I've never said. That's intellectually dishonest.

Firstly, can you explain how you think being just a kernel that is relevant to the conversation? Are you trying to suggest that a benefit of Linux is that it is an incomplete OS? I would disagree.

Secondly, you brought up Android being used by mentioning "Ever heard of Android?", implying it is popular (which it is). So I brought up the PS4, also demonstrating its popularity (which it also is).

So can you explain how Android is a good demonstration of Linux's perceived success but PS4 isn't an equally good demonstration for FreeBSD? Linux being a kernel isn't substantial enough of an argument. FreeBSD also has a kernel that can obviously be separated with minimal work.

Android and the PS4 are pretty much used everywhere. Many people have them. They are a consumer commodity like food processors and TVs. Disputing that is just wasting both our times. If I say Windows is everywhere, this is also fairly true. Sure, might not be in *my* house, but it is still largely everywhere. Yes they are my words, thanks for pointing that out. Can you progress onto you actual points now rather than trying to fiddle about with words like a law student? ;)
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

Nope, I was quoting you. Directly.
Actually, you weren't directly quoting me.
For example?
There've been scheduling improvements that never made it to the Linux kernel. There've been input subsystem improvements that never made it into the Linux kernel. There've been framebuffer improvements that never made it into the Linux kernel. None of this is new information.
I haven't made an argument at all. Please tone down your language. Invective does not lead to productive discussion. That is why you're here, right?
If you have a problem with the way your argument was described, then come with a better argument. Its funny how you never said a single word when another user used the term "bullshit", so don't try to get righteous with me.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

Do not agree. Installer seems to be the smallest problem here. Many people just install once and use a long time after that. Text based installer has it's strengths. For example installing on a virtual machine through terminal.
Regardless of whether or not an installer is a small problem, doesn't give anyone justification for trying to stifle the voices of other users. If users are asking for something, then that's what their asking for.
 

Jose

Daemon

Reaction score: 965
Messages: 1,170

Actually, you weren't directly quoting me.
Really? You consider this "discussion"?
There've been scheduling improvements that never made it to the Linux kernel. There've been input subsystem improvements that never made it into the Linux kernel. There've been framebuffer improvements that never made it into the Linux kernel. None of this is new information.
Links please.
If you have a problem with the way your argument was described, then come with a better argument. Its funny how you never said a single word when another user used the term "bullshit", so don't try to get righteous with me.
I was not addressed by anyone who used that term. You were directly addressing me when you used it. Call it righteousness if you like, I'm just trying to keep the discussion civil and productive.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

Really? You consider this "discussion".
Are you not here conversing?
Links please.
I'm not about to dig up old links to codebases that aren't around anymore. I'll give you 1 example that you can look up yourself -the KGI project.
I was not addressed by anyone who used that term. You were directly addressing me when you used it. Call it righteousness if you like, I'm just trying to keep the discussion civil and productive.
It's currently as civil as it's going to get.
 

Phishfry

Beastie's Twin

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Messages: 5,587

Fighting for the desktop in 2021 is a fool's errand. The desktop is disappearing.
I think the Corona virus shows how much a desktop is really needed.
Every child in my area has a laptop that they need to do their classwork.
So maybe Covid-19 will stem the tide. Phone is limited but convenient.
I do see alot of chromebooks in the edu space. Google adding to its catalog.

I think many people do mobile but they still have a computer at home for real work.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

Reaction score: 32
Messages: 109

I will have to go slower for you then. Lets simply tackle your first point.
Maybe you should go back & reread the thread slower -you've clearly missed a few things.
Firstly, can you explain how you think being just a kernel that is relevant to the conversation? Are you trying to suggest that a benefit of Linux is that it is an incomplete OS?
You're taking 2 different things out of context & trying to put them together. I suggest that you go back & reread what I was saying about Linux being a kernel.
Secondly, you brought up Android being used by mentioning "Ever heard of Android?", implying it is popular (which it is). So I brought up the PS4, also demonstrating its popularity (which it also is).
I brought up Android in response to the argument about the iPhone. It wasn't about popularity, it was about competition in the mobile phone space. Additionally, more people have mobile phones than game consoles. So, bringing up the PS4 as some form of reference for the conversation doesn't actually work.
So can you explain how Android is a good demonstration of Linux's perceived success but PS4 isn't an equally good demonstrations for FreeBSD?
Because the Android ecosystem is an extension of the Linux ecosystem. The PS4's OS isn't an extension of the FreeBSD ecosystem.
Android and the PS4 are pretty much used everywhere. Many people have them. They are a consumer commodity like food processors. Disputing that is just wasting both our times. If I say Windows is everywhere, this is also fairly true. Sure, might not be in *my* house, but it is still largely everywhere. Yes they are my words, thanks for pointing that out. Can you progress onto you actual points now?
Actually, the PS4 isn't pretty much used everywhere. Many people have them, but MOST people don't have them.
 

Jose

Daemon

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Messages: 1,170

Are you not here conversing?
I'm not engaging in a childish game of "no you didn't - yes you did!".
I'm not about to dig up old links to codebases that aren't around anymore. I'll give you 1 example that you can look up yourself -the KGI project.
That didn't take long
But the KGI developers never tried to engage with the Linux graphics developers years ago when there was potential for collaboration. With the complexity of modern GPUs, it doesn't make too much sense to now design their own frry wellamework and then write their own drivers too, when they could support the necessary Linux components and then port those more feature-rich drivers.
It's currently as civil as it's going to get.
Very well. You can have that last word you crave so much.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

I think the Corona virus shows how much a desktop is really needed.
Every child in my area has a laptop that they need to do their classwork.
So maybe Covid-19 will stem the tide. Phone is limited but convenient.
I do see alot of chromebooks in the edu space. Google adding to its catalog.

I think many people do mobile but they still have a computer at home for real work.
Precisely.
 

Jose

Daemon

Reaction score: 965
Messages: 1,170

I think the Corona virus shows how much a desktop is really needed.
Every child in my area has a laptop that they need to do their classwork.
So maybe Covid-19 will stem the tide. Phone is limited but convenient.
I do see alot of chromebooks in the edu space. Google adding to its catalog.
This will make it worse. They'll associate laptops with the boring schoolwork and endless Zoom classroom sessions with some old teacher droning on about things they don't care about.

At the same time they'll be on their phones under the desk, chatting with their friends on Discord, watching the latest funny Tiktok video, and checking out the Snapchat story their friend just linked.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

I'm not engaging in a childish game of "no you didn't - yes you did!".

That didn't take long


Very well. You can have that last word you crave so much.
Actually, they DID try to engage with the kernel developers before their project died. In fact, here's an email about it from the linux kernel mailing list. Maybe you & phoronix should get your facts straight...

 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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kpedersen

Son of Beastie

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Because the Android ecosystem is an extension of the Linux ecosystem. The PS4's OS isn't an extension of the FreeBSD ecosystem.
Oh really? How so? Is that just your opinion?

Last time I checked, Dalvik, SurfaceFlinger and other Android things are a very different userland. Yes, some things are shared but very minimal. I think the work Microsoft has done with WSL has actually contributed more.

Sony contributed to the FreeBSD codebase and LLVM compiler. So is also benefiting it.

Can you clearly state which part of the Android ecosystem you are referring to is benefiting Linux? Last time I checked, the Android NDK also moved away from GCC and to LLVM clang. Any improvements here to compiler technology actually benefit BSD more.

Actually, the PS4 isn't pretty much used everywhere. Many people have them, but MOST people don't have them.
More people have PS4s than people who have Linux workstations I guess is the jist I am happy with you to take away from this. That is what is meant by everywhere. Another example is COVID is everywhere but not *everyone* has it if you are being pedantic.

You're taking 2 different things out of context & trying to put them together.
No I'm not. Can you answer the question please? The following:

Why is your response of "Not really. FreeBSD is an entire OS. Linux is only a kernel" a valid argument to my comparison Android being related to Linux in a similar way that PS4 is relating to FreeBSD.
 

Phishfry

Beastie's Twin

Reaction score: 2,667
Messages: 5,587

Users have simply been asking for better installers & for the installer to install a system that boots into a desktop
I reject this.
Debian and Devuan use almost exactly the same ncurses that FreeBSD uses for setup.
If you start the installer in Graphical Mode it does look better.
But who cares how an installer looks.
Its main function is to setup locale and timezones along with hostname. I see little variations among installers.
Even between sysinstall and bsdinstall there was no major operational changes.

Basic setup is the same with most OS. Maybe you think FreeBSD needs tasksel? Is that what you desire?
FreeBSD does seem to be missing that.
I like the FreeBSD installer and think it works fine. Using bsdinstall for creating jails is Delightful.
 

ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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Messages: 3,236

Linux didn't actually become a better solution until recently (past decade or so). Before that, it was merely a matter of Linux hype & bandwagoning.
Nonsense.

I had a 386 in about 93 or so, when they became affordable to a young researcher. At that point, I had a few choices of installing software: SysV (several thousand $), BSDi (about $1000), or Linux (free). 386BSD was not functional at that time ... it was an experimental system. And getting a distribution from Berkeley's CSRG was impossible for an individual. By the way, please don't think that my criticism of 386BSD is to be taken as a personal dig against Lynn and Bill (whom I know personally, they live close to me, and like have been involved in school volunteering and politics), but as a statement of fact.

Yes, the installer was awful. I started with the SLS distribution (34 floppy disks!), then switched to Yggdrasil, and Slackware. But it worked! And it had Xwindows support (which I needed, I was doing numerical analysis and graphing); on BSD, you needed to have an exact model video card (the Tseng ET4000), since no other cards were supported, and that card was de-facto impossible to buy for individuals, since Tseng had no distribution network.

Here is the real reason Linux became a success: By 94, there was lots of software available for it. For example, I needed a certain data analysis toolkit (CERN's hbook/hplot/PAW), and because Linux was an immediate hit with the CERN and physics folks, it got compiled for Linux within days. I needed a good Fortran compiler, and I ended up making my own contributions to f2c to get it compatible on Linux; at the time, BSD had no Fortran compiler at all (which it didn't need, since the system was intended to be a CS research tool, and computer scientists don't program in Fortran). Also in 94, the first C++ compilers started working reliably, and a commercial GUI builder for Linux came out with a C++ backend. BSD was a niche solution for computer scientists and a few hobbyists, whereas Linux was used in production by then.

By the late 90s, the success of Linux had become inevitable. I remember sitting in the lobby of HP Labs in 99, and Linus was ushered in, he was the guest of honor at a research conference. While a few people in the audience would have recognized Kirk, Eric or Sam, Linus was already a rock star. From a research viewpoint, BSD was ahead (Linux internals were a mess), but Linux already had a giant market share, and more importantly mind share. Just as an example: When the first Itanium chips came out (in about 99, that's when secret prototype chips and boards became available internally at Intel and HP), the first OSes ported to it were ... HP-UX and VMS. Obviously, since those were needed to run on it. At the same time, a very small group (fundamentally one guy) ported Linux to it. While the lab where that port was done was a a heavy BSD user, nobody even considered putting BSD on the chip. What would be the point? At that time, Linux was already used by a massive number of machines, while BSD was a niche product, used for research and embedded products.

That's not "hype and bandwagoneering". The reality is that Linux filled a giant hole in the market, and succeeded spectacularly at it.
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

This will make it worse. They'll associate laptops with the boring schoolwork and endless Zoom classroom sessions with some old teacher droning on about things they don't care about.

At the same time they'll be on their phones under the desk, chatting with their friends on Discord, watching the latest funny Tiktok video, and checking out the Snapchat story their friend just linked.
You've definitely got a point, there...
 

A. D. Sharpe Sr.

Active Member

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Messages: 109

I reject this.
Debian and Devuan use almost exactly the same ncurses that FreeBSD uses for setup.
If you start the installer in Graphical Mode it does look better.
But who cares how an installer looks.
Its main function is to setup locale and timezones along with hostname. I see little variations among installers.
Even between sysinstall and bsdinstall there was no major operational changes.

Basic setup is the same with most OS. Maybe you think FreeBSD needs tasksel? Is that what you desire?
FreeBSD does seem to be missing that.
I like the FreeBSD installer and think it works fine. Using bsdinstall for creating jails is Delightful.
It doesn't matter how much you reject it, people have been asking for it for years. In fact, so many people have been asking for it that there're been multiple groups splitting off & providing it.
 
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