FreeBSD system and its share of worldwide use - July 2024

On another note, 32bit hardware architecture needs to be left behind, except for on 32bit SBC's (ARM, Raspberry). This doesn't include using 32bit layer or emulation for using older software on modern computers, which will always be needed. There's not even an appropriate operating system for 32bit SBC's. There needs to be a hybrid BSD, Minix, Public Domain OS (PDOS), Haiku operating system for the command line and/or menu driven for 32bit SBC's. It's pointless to put together old computers with legacy physical hardware components to use 32bit; that use needs to shift to the domain of 32bit SBC's.
This reminds me that my parents are come to visit late this month. They are going to bring my old X40, but I have no clue what I'm going to install on it.
 
On another note, 32bit hardware architecture needs to be left behind, except for on 32bit SBC's (ARM, Raspberry). This doesn't include using 32bit layer or emulation for using older software on modern computers, which will always be needed. There's not even an appropriate operating system for 32bit SBC's. There needs to be a hybrid BSD, Minix, Public Domain OS (PDOS), Haiku operating system for the command line and/or menu driven for 32bit SBC's. It's pointless to put together old computers with legacy physical hardware components to use 32bit; that use needs to shift to the domain of 32bit SBC's.
That reminds me, I have several Z80, Z180 and Z280 (!) based 8-bit systems in the basement. Need to spend a weekend setting one or two of them up, find my cp/m OS media, and get them booting.

Plus two VAXen; for those I would have to download an up-to-date version of OpenVMS from whoever bought it from Digital -> Compaq -> HP, and reinstall boot. Unless the boot disks are still alive (they are about 35 years old). Those will run 32-bit OSes, and form a network (with the first ever production multi-host file system, they are a VAXcluster).

A friend has an 18-bit computer (a PDP-15) and a small 16-bit computer (HP minicomputer) in his garage. And a computer that doesn't even have a well-defined word size (it's characters are 6 bits, the word size depends on what you're doing), and IBM 1401, which he organizes demo'ing in the Computer History Museum. All with operating systems.
 
I think the trade off for using FreeBSD, is
That's, of course, too.
But I like to put it more general:

There are always trade offs.
In real life there is no such thing as the perfect jack-of-all-trades.
That's just the human longing for comfort you can sell lots of crap with.
Real life is always about to make compromises.
That means decisions to make (also known as 'freedom')
For that you need to know how, and why.
And that needs learning, which for many is experienced as weary, and uncomfortable.

It was already pointed out here:
There is no operating system supports every piece of hardware.
With free-to-use open-source operating systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux, ...) you may not get support for every top recent hardware, but the widest support for any hardware at all.
In the contrary with Microsoft or Apple you always get support for all top recent hardware (with Apple mostly exclusively Apple only HW [just to prevent some bean-counter may point this one out extra]),
but you may face the fact you need to buy new hardware when your system was upgraded.

And there are also other aspects, like being milked, or spyed on - or to have the control to be not.

With a free-to-use open-source operating system it's not to first buy the most fanciest hardware you like, and then demand the OS supports it.
It works quite the opposite way:
You decide to use a free-to-use open-sourse OS, and then see which hardware is suitable.

Also there are compromises, especially with laptops.
Laptops are a fix assembled bundle of hardware on a single board. Maybe drive and RAM are exchangable. But with the rest you stick for better or worse. Additionally laptops contain lots of special toys, like those special buttons for multimedia, direct access to browser, or e-mail, and special laptop features.
Those are done completely manufacturer specific, and most often without any standards, or even documentation how to address those.
Since I don't care about those anyway I always try to buy hardware with as few of this junk as possible.
So I don't bother if a button I don't want anyway doesn't work.
To me a laptop is a secondary, mobile machine, the dinghy I have additionally to my main desktop computer, the one with more than one large monitors and a proper keyboard.
It's a makeshift solution for travels.

The WLAN adapter in my ASUS laptop is also not supported under FreeBSD.
So what?!
I bought a short, small WLAN-USB-dongle for 9€, and voilá: WLAN access.
But of course this is my personal style, since I'm doing most of my work in my office and not travelling most of my time.

Anyway,
using a free-to-use open-source operating system is an attidude.
An attidude neither means better, nor worse.
And it must not become a religion.
But it's primary an attitude.
You want to do/have things different.
Therefor things are different.
If you simply expect getting Windows, but just without paying license fees, you came to the wrong shop.

All free-to-use open-source operating systems so far may differ in targets, details, especially their ideas how to do things right.
But they are all united in having one common idea:
To do things right from computer scientists point of view.
While commercial OS do things from their how-to-sell-best point of view.

Or to put it even more short, and flat:
The primary focus is on to do scientific things right, the scientific way,
not to look cool, not to use the newest, most fancy toys available.

One may compare it a bit like being a vegetarian.
If you are one you do it because you developed an attidude. By conviction.
Doing it just because you see it as some trend you need to join because anybody cool is doing it,
means to do it wrong.
Also doing it as some kind of religion is also wrong.

Of course vegetarians like to become their move, the attidude more popular. Convince more people.
But not for any price. Especially not for giving up core principles.

Once you got a taste of it being the right thing for you,
you don't go into a veggie shop and say:
'You know, how you could gain even more popularity?
Sell meat.'
Of course, you're right. This would gain more popularity.
But you also know the answer you'll get:
'You came to the wrong shop, pal!'
Because you miss the core point of the whole idea.
 
I was able to reinstall Ventura on my OpenCore patched 2015 rMBP without any needing to ping Apples Servers
You are likely mistaken (sometimes people forget that they are online). For one you probably didn't pass in the undocumented --downloadassets when creating the installation image? Making it impossible in the first place. Once you have done that you *still* need to activate as per the following DRM disclaimer:

This Mac must be able to connect to the Internet. A bootable installer doesn’t download macOS, but it does need an Internet connection to get firmware and other information for this Mac model.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/101578

"Other information" of course being a hash of the hardware serial as your DRM fingerprint. (Same way Windows XP generated a hash from CPU and Hard Disk). They also use this as part of the developer DRM with signed executables. Grim.

If activation locked was enabled prior to reinstallation, yes.
Its has nothing to do with "Activation Lock" for lost laptops. A common confusion with Apples DRM Activation. Two completely separate things (annoyingly making "cracks" hard to find and/or distribute).

Here is one symptom (artificial faux need to download firmware. Makes me laugh; if you are offline, how does it even know there is an update! Broken crap.):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5OOFcnxUKY

FreeBSD is so much more user friendly than this luckily :)
 
ralphbsz If you ever need some Z80 dip replacements, I have a few. Plus a Hitachi graphics controller that a vendor surprisingly got for me. It was a $100 newly introduced chip that, in today's dollars, might be $300.
 
In other words, in 20 years, FreeBSD (and other FOSS) will be the only choice to install on the current mac you own now.
might sound nice for a hobbiest to tinker around, but noone will use that system for serious work. You will probably get quite a cheap system five times more powerful with a third of that power consumption for a small amount of money.
 
might sound nice for a hobbiest to tinker around, but noone will use that system for serious work. You will probably get quite a cheap system five times more powerful with a third of that power consumption for a small amount of money.
Indeed. I rarely recommend using a 20 year old machine for serious work. The heat generated by "modern" software isn't fair on the poor thing.

*quickly checks stock of thinkpads*

Phew, the oldest one I regularly use (X230) is 12 years. A mere whippersnapper!

Edit: Actually, the mac mini 2012 is a fairly decent. Only draws 7W. It is not a bad Raspberry Pi 3/4 alternative for a quick'n'dirty home server. Bizarrely the cost of these things are getting quite close to the Pi too!
 
Indeed. I rarely recommend using a 20 year old machine for serious work. The heat generated by "modern" software isn't fair on the poor thing.

*quickly checks stock of thinkpads*

Phew, the oldest one I regularly use (X230) is 12 years. A mere whippersnapper!

Edit: Actually, the mac mini 2012 is a fairly decent. Only draws 7W. It is not a bad Raspberry Pi 3/4 alternative for a quick'n'dirty home server. Bizarrely the cost of these things are getting quite close to the Pi too!
The contradiction, in the handbook they recommend to use hardware from years bofore , because maybe FreeBSD already has support for the old ones, and here I get that.

I have old hardware that FreeBSD recommends in FreeBSD Hardware & Platforms, among them is a thinkpad t430..x which is old hardware.
 
I have a Gateway with 196MB memory and a 128GB hard drive(?) in my basement with FreeBSD 9.0 on it. I keep it around because it has all my VHS tapes on the hard drive.......just in case.
I have a Dell Inspiron 1720 from 2009 with FreeBSD 13 that I use as the weekly backup to my current workstation because it works.
I have a Dell Inspiron 1545 from 2007 with FreeBSD 14.1 on it for experimenting but, for some reason, it started having trouble seeing the USB thumb drive. I may have to retire it.
 
The contradiction, in the handbook they recommend to use hardware from years bofore , because maybe FreeBSD already has support for the old ones, and here I get that.

I have old hardware that FreeBSD recommends in FreeBSD Hardware & Platforms, among them is a thinkpad t430..x which is old hardware.
Old in tech terms typically is a "few years". I.e your top of the range 2024 Alienware gaming laptop will likely struggle but your 2 year old ThinkPad X1 Carbon will probably be fine.

Old hardware is great, but after 20 years, you can expect some physical degredation of the hardware. Absolutely fine for personal use though.

Its always a trade off between hardware support and hardware malfunction due to age. This used to be a real issue up to around 2010 but now everything is so cheap and easy to get hold of. Tech barely holds value anymore because companies like Microsoft and Apple instruct people to "buy, buy, BUY!".
 
. This used to be a real issue up to around 2010 but now everything is so cheap and easy to get hold of. Tech barely holds value anymore because companies like Microsoft and Apple instruct people to "buy, buy, BUY!".
My 2009 HP technology is 15 years old, does that mean it is obsolete for FreeBSD because it is too old? In FreeBSD Hardware & Platforms it is among the possible compatible ones.
 
My 2009 HP technology is 15 years old, does that mean it is obsolete for FreeBSD because it is too old?
Not at all. HP and IBM/Lenovo were one of the few laptop vendors with a good chance of supporting FreeBSD (and Linux) back then.

My favorite laptop for going on trips is the X61 Thinkpad from 2007. I have a stack of this specific model (Gets rather warm though).

Would I run a business critical service for a client on such aging machines? Probably not! But that has little to do with FreeBSD.
 
You are likely mistaken (sometimes people forget that they are online). For one you probably didn't pass in the undocumented --downloadassets when creating the installation image? Making it impossible in the first place. Once you have done that you *still* need to activate as per the following DRM disclaimer

I didn't pass anything. I was able to do a reinstall because I never wiped the firmware and SSV from my initial factory installation. So you're using a bootable USB installer.. this context was never mentioned your previous posts. This has been a requirement since Big Sur when apple introduced SSV's with macOS alongside SIP on a separate system volume. It's not DRM, it's added integrity checking for security. This works hand in hand in APFS.

The only way you can get around this in an isolated network is if you disable SSV checking and SIP (which can be done in recovery mode via CLI), build a custom image onto a USB stick (using bless, or blessing-ing the image), then do the unintended installs on multiple macs. But then you're severely compromising the security of those desktop systems not doing those checks. Let alone wasting an ass load of time. SUN did a similar thing with their systems with iLOM; this is hardly a bad thing.

Besides, you should be using proper MDM management software for this type of desktop administration anyway.

"Other information" of course being a hash of the hardware serial as your DRM fingerprint. (Same way Windows XP generated a hash from CPU and Hard Disk). They also use this as part of the developer DRM with signed executables. Grim.

Firmware isn't included in the macOS installer; as Apple provides firmware only for the latest version of macOS for a given specific mac model. No matter how you slice it; you will always have to ping Apples Servers; if you choose to wipe/reinstall of macOS from scratch. The SSV is checked with Apple to ensure no file has been tampered with all the way down to the last bit. The root node in the filesystem is also signed; called a seal. Stop calling it DRM; it's not. It's just added protection against malware. Apple also calls it "personalization", you can use that term if you will.

Its has nothing to do with "Activation Lock" for lost laptops. A common confusion with Apples DRM Activation. Two completely separate things (annoyingly making "cracks" hard to find and/or distribute).

Again, this has been a thing since Big Sur, and is functionally equivalent to reinstating from scratch via internet recovery mode. You're still pinging Apples servers for device specific software and checking. This isn't a bad thing. You (and the person in that video) are complaining about something you don't really understand.
 
I never wiped the firmware and SSV from my initial factory installation.
We clearly have very different definitions of the term "reinstallation". When trying to demonstrate or reproduce a bug, you do tend to want to start from scratch, so any cruft left over doesn't damage your results.
It's not DRM, it's added integrity checking for security. This works hand in hand in APFS.
That is an excuse. Same with "firmware" updates being the reason before (see further down). In what universe do you think sane integrity checking needs to connect to an online server. Zero resilience there!
The only way you can get around this in an isolated network is if you disable SSV checking and SIP (which can be done in recovery mode via CLI), build a custom image onto a USB stick (using bless, or blessing-ing the image),
And patch the installer binary to skip the DRM check. That is called a "crack". A DRM crack is quite common for i.e Windows XP too. Blessing won't fix this; the error provided isn't relating to this mechanism.
Firmware isn't included in the macOS installer; as Apple provides firmware only for the latest version of macOS for a given specific mac model. No matter how you slice it; you will always have to ping Apples Servers
Absolute nonsense. Firstly, we never had to before so your logic is flawed there. Second, firmware can be gathered from a different machine and *archived* for an unlimited number of offline installs. That way no begging of Apple is needed each time.
This isn't a bad thing. You (and the person in that video) are complaining about something you don't really understand.
Its a very bad thing. It guarantees that once Apple turns off their DRM server, you're basically adding to the landfill artifically. Absurd, verging on criminal if you think about it! XD.

But, regardless of whether we think that is acceptable or not (its really not), as per your earlier post, you *can't* install macOS offline anymore as I stated (and you have now confirmed). I am quite happy to move away from our discussion of an inferior operating system now ;)
 
We clearly have very different definitions of the term "reinstallation". When trying to demonstrate or reproduce a bug, you do tend to want to start from scratch, so any cruft left over doesn't damage your results.

With Mac administration, there are multiple versions of reinstallation depending on the state of the system. If you're wiping and restoring, in your case; (which erases the cryptographically signed SSV); you need to ping Apple for their signature. Regular recovery mode reinstallation don't require this; as the SSV is still intact.

That is an excuse. Same with "firmware" updates being the reason before (see further down). In what universe do you think sane integrity checking needs to connect to an online server. Zero resilience there!

Each time you perform an erase and reinstall, and boot the device; the SSV is cryptographically checked with Apple. You refuse the accept this; I don't care. This is a good security measure on Apples' part. This process is true for iOS. If the FreeBSD Foundation spun off an LLC and offered the same type of service with a support package; I doubt you'd be complaining.

Now, before Big Sur; I used be able to use my backup device as a boot device for any sort of troubleshooting. This is no longer the case. Was I annoyed? You bet I was. Just was like I was annoyed when Apple started soldering on their SSDs. A pure d**k move IMO. But when you understand the practicality behind Apples changes; the benefits are welcomed. I'm not so mad anymore; considered everything else you get with a typical Mac system.

And patch the installer binary to skip the DRM check. That is called a "crack". A DRM crack is quite common for i.e Windows XP too. Blessing won't fix this; the error provided isn't relating to this mechanism.

Again, you're not patching any installer, or cracking anything. You're simply restoring from a modified image of an existing volume; without the added protections enabled. Blessing is part of this process. The lack of Mac administration experience proceeds you here.

Absolute nonsense. Firstly, we never had to before so your logic is flawed there. Second, firmware can be gathered from a different machine and *archived* for an unlimited number of offline installs. That way no begging of Apple is needed each time.

For which version of macOS? and for which hardware? It was simple process before Big Sur. Even when using IPSW's to restore firmware separately.. once you update the device; you're still pinging Apples servers for updated firmware. Who the hell wants to run outdated firmware for their device?

Its a very bad thing. It guarantees that once Apple turns off their DRM server, you're basically adding to the landfill artifically. Absurd, verging on criminal if you think about it! XD.

So you're willing to trade security for convenience. Great. MacBooks last a long time. "Planned Obsolesce" is a matter of perspective. There's projects like OpenCore you can contribute to as well.

But, regardless of whether we think that is acceptable or not (its really not), as per your earlier post, you *can't* install macOS offline anymore as I stated (and you have now confirmed). I am quite happy to move away from our discussion of an inferior operating system now ;)

Which uses software from FreeBSD's kernel and userspace.. sure it's inferior.


you *can't* install macOS offline anymore as I stated (and you have now confirmed).

I've confirmed you can't after a wipe and reinstall. Your MacFu still lacks.
 
For which version of macOS? and for which hardware? It was simple process before Big Sur. Even when using IPSW's to restore firmware separately.. once you update the device; you're still pinging Apples servers for updated firmware.
I mentioned that Ventura was the first. So Catalina is the last version without the DRM.

Again, you're not patching any installer, or cracking anything. You're simply restoring from a modified image of an existing volume; without the added protections enabled. Blessing is part of this process. The lack of Mac administration experience proceeds you here.
I think we are still talking about different error messages. This one is hardcoded (after the network connection test) to abort if it can't make a request to Apple's server. Its not really administration related either. Just a simple artificial restriction written into the code. Likely a mere two lines of code. You really do just need to go through the whole thing offline to experience it; no point in just guessing.

Who the hell wants to run outdated firmware for their device?
Apple stops releasing new firmware after a few years. Who wants to suckle from Apple's teet in order to use their device?

So you're willing to trade security for convenience.
An offline install is pretty darn secure. My offline 2012 mac is certainly more secure than any mac you run online. ;)
You also don't want to connect a mac online during installation when it is literally at its weakest in terms of security updates.
You trade security for... inconvenience? Sounds a bit silly.

Which uses software from FreeBSD's kernel and userspace.. sure it's inferior.
Almost every operating system does. FreeBSD can't be held accountable for breakage done by others :)

I've confirmed you can't after a wipe and reinstall. Your MacFu still lacks.
You might want to edit your incorrect post #124 now that you have confirmed via an actual reinstall rather than a superficial recovery.
 
An offline install is pretty darn secure. My offline 2012 mac is infinitely more secure than any mac you run online. ;)

I bet you use brush your teeth without toothpaste.

You also don't want to connect a mac online during installation when it is literally at its weakest in terms of updates.

What if I told you the kernel is not even loaded during this verification process. ;)

You might want to edit your incorrect post #124 now that you have confirmed via an actual reinstall rather than a superficial recovery.

Your complaint was missing context. Which is why I assumed you were talking about Activation Lock, and that the device wasn't wiped. I'm still correct either way. I reinstalled without pinging Apple. What you call "DRM" is called integrity checking. Now a MacBook requiring a firmware password you had to purchase from Apple to boot is a different story. (Apple you better not do this) I'm not argue semantics about that though. Carry on.
 
I bet you use brush your teeth without toothpaste.
I manage to do it offline whenever I want. You have to ask Apple each time your want to brush yours right? You are hooked!

What if I told you the kernel is not even loaded during this verification process. ;)
It certainly is during the DRM process that this discussion is about.

Your complaint was missing context. Which is why I assumed you were talking about Activation Lock
I really was quite clear. I specifically mentioned "DRM" so we know its not relating to the lost/found Activation Lock.
I also specifically stated "Since Ventura". Activation Lock has been around well before that release. From this you could infer that it is a different restriction that Apple had more recently introduced.

I reinstalled.
You did a superficial erase of personal data.

What you call "DRM" is called integrity checking.
Yeah, integrity checking of your Digital Rights Restrictions with Apple's Management server.

Now a MacBook requiring a firmware password you had to purchase from Apple to boot is a different story. (Apple you better not do this) I'm not argue semantics about that though. Carry on.
Its a slippery slope. Got to cut out the cancer when its small and hasn't yet metastasised. Windows XP was good evidence of that. Same with the iPhones to be honest, they require DRM reactivation after a factory reset too (since iPhone 4s I believe). It is simply spreading to macOS.
 
You have to ask Apple each time your want to brush yours right? You are hooked!

I do what I want with my toothbrush. I don't have an issue with Apple supplying the toothpaste (protection).

I really was quite clear. I specifically mentioned "DRM" so we know its not relating to the lost/found Activation Lock.
I also specifically stated "Since Ventura". Activation Lock has been around well before that release. From this you could infer that it is a different restriction that Apple had more recently introduced.

You assumed I would infer context when none was provided. That's being lazy sir. I've had enough of that as an ex-T2 advisor. Ain't doing that on some random forum.

Activation Lock is DRM. Integrity checking (or what they call "personalization") is not. "Since Ventura" is irrelevant, given the context of how you approached your issue. This goes back to Big Sur. You (and presumably the guy in the video) wiped the SSV, without realizing it. Unbeknownst to the changes that been done since Big Sur. And only Apple has the correct signature (as they should) for the SSV. That's it. You want your desired outcome? You gotta go back to Catalina; and risk having a less secure device. Or restore offline from a modified image.

You did a superficial erase of personal data.

A "superficial erase" doesn't erase personal data. The Data Volume is left alone in this type of reinstallation. The SSV is simply replaced and signed; with the appropriate firmlinks reconfigured for your System and Data Volumes (these are tied together in the same APFS container). This is why you'll often see "Macintosh HD" and "Macintosh HD - Data" in disk utility.

Your use case (which lacked context) completely changes the dynamic of the issue you experienced. I suggest you do more research on the things i've mentioned. Hopefully your irrational distaste for Apple won't be so hyperbolic.

Ok. I'm gonna put away my bat now. I think the horse has had enough. 😋
 
I don't have an issue with Apple supplying the toothpaste (protection).
I do. I don't want to have to connect to their servers every time I need to open the tube (protection).

I've had enough of that as an ex-T2 advisor. Ain't doing that on some random forum.
Based on this interaction, I can see why you are an ex-T2 advisor. It didn't play to your strengths. I think many tech people should understand basic instructions of a "reinstall" to expose a recently introduced bug (DRM). Emptying the trash bin for example, is clearly not enough.

Activation Lock is DRM.
No it isn't. The user can simply disable it (or not enable it in the first place since it defaults to disabled). If the user controls it, its not DRM.

Integrity checking (or what they call "personalization") is not.
Yes, it is, when used as an excuse to check your usage rights which as a user, you cannot disable.

Or restore offline from a modified image.
Still won't work. You will still trigger the hardcoded DRM checks unless you crack them out. Same way you can't use a Windows image on different computers without reactivating.

Ok. I'm gonna put away my bat now. I think the horse has had enough. 😋
I don't think it is too much of an issue that we completely disagree with one another. Other people have noticed this. But you can stay ignorant if you like. Many people can't spot DRM and that is what the crooks rely on.

Yep, let us allow the horse to rest. We can't spend our time talking about *all* the dodgy software that exists. Not enough time in the day.
 
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