FreeBSD 10 - worst release ever?

Dies_Irae

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Hi all,

a few days ago I decided to upgrade my home PC from 9.2-STABLE to 10-STABLE.

I don't have much time these days, and I've never used the new clang-based version of FreeBSD, so the upgrade process is very slow. However, thanks to zfs(8) and the beautiful sysutils/beadm tool, I can switch in any moment between my 9.2-STABLE fully-working setup and the 10-STABLE shapeless-pre-pre-pre-alpha one. It's amazing. :beergrin

I use a custom kernel configuration, but it's the same in 9.2-STABLE and 10-STABLE, and I've only disabled some unused devices. The new beast (10-STABLE) is working fine, every device work flawlessly, I just {have|want} to recompile all my installed ports, and this is obviously the most time-consuming task. Some ports fails to build, maybe it's a clang-vs-gcc issue, but I can't call this a problem since I simply have not yet had time to investigate. But one thing caught my attention: I've had the feeling that the system's boot is slower than the 9.2-STABLE one. I don't really care about how many seconds my system takes to boot, but the difference is noticeable.

I'm pretty sure the problem is due to the fact that it's a "work in progress", but just for curiosity, I've searched a bit and I have found this article, which is very very critical toward the last release of FreeBSD. Since I'm still upgrading, I have no way to verify the statements on that article, but the criticisms are so heavy that, if they are true, I think I should have seen some feedback here in the forums.

Anyone able to confirm or refute these statements?

In the meantime, I will continue the upgrade process, regardless of the criticisms... §e
 

SirDice

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The site you're referring to is a known troll, so don't put too much weight into it. That said, sure, some things aren't quite finished yet. That usually happens with a .0 release. The release was cut using a fairly stable base, most bugs have been fixed but it still needs a lot of testing. Those .0 releases are for testing by the general population, you can only test so much in a development environment. That's one of the reasons why support for a .0 release ends as soon as a .1 comes out.
 

tzoi516

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Every OS ... scratch that ... every piece of software written doesn't have the user base to knock out any bugs, whether it's an OS or app. I think FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE has a decent start so far.
 
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Dies_Irae

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SirDice said:
The site you're referring to is a known troll
It was the first thing I thought of, but the article seemed slightly more technical than the average troll post, so I decided to ask here for confirmation.
SirDice said:
don't put too much weight into it
No way.
SirDice said:
some things aren't quite finished yet. That usually happens with a .0 release. The release was cut using a fairly stable base, most bugs have been fixed but it still needs a lot of testing.
And there's nothing wrong with that.

Thank you very much, @SirDice. Quick and clear as always.
 
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kpa

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It works for me and does what I expect it to do. So... the site you linked must have wrong information :pP
 

Crivens

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Dies_Irae said:
SirDice said:
The site you're referring to is a known troll
It was the first thing I thought of, but the article seemed slightly more technical than the average troll post, so I decided to ask here for confirmation.
Trollness is confirmed here - this is a somewhat more skilled troll. But still a troll.
 

JWJones

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Wow, they sure have a bone to pick with the BSDs at that website. What's up with that? There's some serious conspiracy theory level stuff, there. Backdoors, PC-BSD is Apple funded to draw people away from Linux, etc. Tin foil hat, much?
 

kpa

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JWJones said:
Wow, they sure have a bone to pick with the BSDs at that website. What's up with that? There's some serious conspiracy theory level stuff, there. Backdoors, PC-BSD is Apple funded to draw people away from Linux, etc. Tin foil hat, much?
BSD is not free in the way those people would like it to be. The BSD license allows the evil companies to "steal" BSD licensed software and make big bucks out of it without any obligation to contribute back to the open source world. That is what drives certain people mad because they are powerless in the matter and can only resort to trash talk.
 

Carpetsmoker

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The new pkg tools are certainly very un-UNIX-y. Not that ths is a bad thing *as such*, but I don't like it. For example, if I do a pkg install gmake (no dependencies), why does it a) need to ask for confirmation? b) Spew 15 lines of unrequested & unwanted output?
I'd also prefer to have pkg{-,_}[tool], instead of one master command which does all; it's always such a pain to deal with these sort of programs...

Also, apparently, they're not even a part of the base system. I first had to install them on my FreeBSD 10 machine ... ? meh. :-/
 

vermaden

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Dies_Irae said:
Anyone able to confirm or refute these statements?
I did not measured boot speed as I have GELI full disk encryption and have to enter password at every boot.

but I can tell quite the opposite, I have tried to use 9.2-STABLE on ThinkPad W530 and it failed to boot, hanged at boot.

FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE boots without any poblems, latest 3G card is fully supported with config from 9.2-STABLE, wifi works, card reader works (even automounts with sysutils/automount), cpu scaling works, nvidia graphics/intel graphics works (no test console after x11 on Intel as newcons commits are missed in the RELEASE).

Generally, very good fealing about 10.0-RELEASE, probably the best release ever, and probably the best FreeBSD 'dot zero' release ever.
 

Pushrod

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Crivens said:
Trollness is confirmed here - this is a somewhat more skilled troll. But still a troll.
How skilled are we talking? The author used "then" instead of "than" about a zillion times.
 

ondra_knezour

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He knows some cool words like hypervisor and kernel, such way skilled :) I would not make general assumptions about person's skills based only on the written expression, english may not be his native language. I am also still making many common mistakes, especially when tired after long day, because english is fourth language I had to learn and given fifth german, you easily get unable to introduce yourself when evening arrives :)

To not be so much out of topic - every time somebody links this blog, I have to wonder what the heck force him to waste his precious time with looking over forums, trying to install and use BSD again and again and torture himself with such ugly system.
 

hitest

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I had a good laugh reading the review about FreeBSD 10.0. The author does not even pretend to be objective. The Wordpress blog is worth reading for the entertainment value. Very much a troll.

With the kernel fully booted and the slow and obsolete BSD init finally activating all required services, we started the installation and ran into the next big change
BSD developers are trying to force users away from FOSS respecting GPU manufacturers like Intel and AMD and instead make them use drivers from proprietary terrorists like NVidia.
 

protocelt

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I've only been using FreeBSD since 8.2-RELEASE, however IMHO, this latest release has been outstanding in so many different ways!

I don't understand how a person could hate an Operating System so much. None the less, don't hate on the troll too much. He provides a healthy dose of entertainment value. I look forward to following every link I see referring to his blog. Cheers to you troll, keep fighting the good fight! :beergrin
 

nakal

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5.0 was OK... it was 5.3 which made me stay away from FreeBSD until 7.0 was released.

I cannot understand that people justify bad software releases by being ".0" releases. On the one hand, it's not true (at least for good software projects). On the other hand, there are software companies that entirely skip the version ".0" and even "1.x" to give their own software more credibility. Come on.. people...
 

worldi

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nakal said:
there are software companies that entirely skip the version ".0" and even "1.x" to give their own software more credibility.
Some even skipped 1.x, 2.x, 3.x and 4.1. This practice is called "version number abSUSE". :e
 

nanotek

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Thanks for the link. I had a good laugh.

I think this release might have been made in haste, but I anticipate good things with PKGNG. Not too sure about clang, I think it might have been an emotional/philosophical decision and not an objective one, but it's still early days. I think the upgrade itself has been the source of more disappointment than the actual release: the machine I installed 10.0-RELEASE to has not brought with it so much frustration as the machines I upgraded.
 
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Dies_Irae

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Pushrod said:
How skilled are we talking?
Well, at least he has strived to find some technical term. The vast majority of the anti-BSD trolls just says something like "*BSD sucks because not only I must use the keyboard to install it, but I also need a brain to use it!"
We can at least appreciate the effort :e

vermaden said:
Generally, very good fealing about 10.0-RELEASE, probably the best release ever, and probably the best FreeBSD 'dot zero' release ever.
Thanks, this confirm that my slow boot (non-)problem it's probably (as I had already assumed) attributable to something misconfigured or not-yet-configured.
 

vermaden

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Dies_Irae said:
vermaden said:
Generally, very good fealing about 10.0-RELEASE, probably the best release ever, and probably the best FreeBSD 'dot zero' release ever.
Thanks, this confirm that my slow boot (non-)problem it's probably (as I had already assumed) attributable to something misconfigured or not-yet-configured.
Maybe it boots slow, I just did not measured that since FreeBSD 8.x when I did NOT had full disk encryption with GELI, so its safe to NOT rely on my experiences if it comes to boot times ;)
 

SirDice

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My home server was upgraded from 9-STABLE to 10-STABLE. It doesn't boot slower or faster. If you're going to play around with 10 I would advise to use 10-STABLE. Everything that didn't make it into 10.0 will slowly be added to 10-STABLE so you don't have to wait for 10.1.
 

drhowarddrfine

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iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.
 

zspider

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drhowarddrfine said:
iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.
He also had an unfortunate accident involving a tree and a beehive, he's been scarred for life. :(
 

Carpetsmoker

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drhowarddrfine said:
iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.
Do you also know who it is?

Yesterday, at another (non-tech) forum, someone curious about BSD stumbled on that pile of vomit website, and more or less took it serious, which is pretty understandable ...
 

sulman

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drhowarddrfine said:
iirc, that troll is a former FreeBSD developer who's thoughts on how FreeBSD should be developed were frequently brushed off as being too far "out there" so he now pouts in the corner of his parent's basement and occasionally lashes out cause that's what you can do on the internet.
I'm not surprised. They've clearly got a grudge, and they post at Phoronix quite a lot, too.

I'm pretty pleased with 10. I'm running it on my work desktop (I replaced Arch Linux for no reason other than I am working with more FreeBSD servers and quite like the structure, plus I've lost a few hours when Arch occasionally do one of their infamous major changes) and I have no complaints.

I do have a comment about boot times. FreeBSD's current init system will never compete with the likes of Systemd on speed, nor should it. The obsession with boot time is weird and a bit of a fool's errand, in my opinion. As long as it's say less than a minute there's no real problem. If you're a mobile user you're probably using suspend/resume anyway (I don't remember the last time I bothered to actually reboot my Macbook. Usually when the battery is flat.)

I'm pleased about clang, if only because BSD is going its own way, and it needs to do that, and while I'm not a software engineer clang seems to show a lot of promise.

I'd like better multilib gpu support (the ability to properly use Wine with a non-Nvidia card on an amd64 platform would be nice, but not essential) but I can't think of anything that really bugs me.
 
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