For "knowledgeable people"

Emrion said:
I'm so inexperienced and I can't projet... Hum, lol. I ain't alone, fine!

Seriously. Wake up! Wake up, before FreeBSD diseapears.
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This silly thread should disappear. FreeBSD will outlive you and I so just learn how to use it properly and get on with life.

Emrion said:
Yet, my script is widely used
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Slightly dispute that statement but really its not the point. So far you have not been able to provide a meaningful rebuttal to the 'knowledgable people' you were referring to in your first post who disagreed with you.
 
I hope so. But, we (you and I) will disappear before. It's just because I like so much this OS.

To answer to your edit, I edit myself: I provided a link to the thread that convinced me to do something. I did it. And no one can say, this script isn't working. Have you tried it?

They all disagree if you read the thread link I provided. I was right, and I'm right despite their opinions.
 
Emrion said:
Replybefore FreeBSD diseapears
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It is now official. Internet User #54797 has confirmed: FreeBSD is dying.

Emrion said:
And I guess, you don't even try it.
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Why would I? Skimmed the code and it doesn't even handle my setup. This is a less than 5 minute per year task + I trust the wisdom of experienced people saying this isn't a good idea, more than a script.

I guess this is shitpost thread number 103385 now...
 
baaz said:
It is now official. Internet User #54797 has confirmed: FreeBSD is dying.


Why would I? Skimmed the code and it doesn't even handle my setup. This is a less than 5 minute per year task + I trust the wisdom of experienced people saying this isn't a good idea, more than a script.

I guess this is shitpost thread number 103385 now...
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You're lucky. Is it what you advise with your followers?
 
Erichans said:
What I don't understand: why isn't there a unique identifier string, like <versionID><arch>, embedded in the bootloader code? That would certainly enable any utility to uniquely determine the version of a certain bootloader binary. IIRC, Warner Losch mentioned somewhere on a ML that is not what is being done.
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This would be a good idea. On Raspbian linux for instance you can run rpi-eeprom-{version,update} to report or update eeproms. Something similar can be done for FreeBSD to deal with its bootstrap madness. I'm sure Warner Losh has an opinion about such a thing :-)
 
baaz said:
It is now official. Internet User #54797 has confirmed: FreeBSD is dying.


Why would I? Skimmed the code and it doesn't even handle my setup. This is a less than 5 minute per year task + I trust the wisdom of experienced people saying this isn't a good idea, more than a script.

I guess this is shitpost thread number 103385 now...
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I wouldn't personally either, but OTOH, VMs are a thing that most computers can handle these days, so at least people can walk through the process on that if they feel compelled to learn how to do it. But, personally, I can't say that I've ever felt the need myself to mess with that stuff outside of times when an actual upgrade requires it.

I haven't bothered to do it, but with disks being as large as they are, there are times when I'm tempted to just put a miniature install on my disk as a rescue environment. Just a stupidly simple single filesystem with whatever utilities I expect to need that can be reimaged as necessary if things really go wrong to bootstrap restoring the rest. Then again, there are a bunch of ways to run that off of a thumbstick, so the actual purpose in doing so is greatly reduced.
 
Emrion said:
You're lucky. Is it what you advise with your followers?
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I have followers? That's news to me.
But yes my advice to anyone starting out with a new piece of teach would be to learn and do what people with decades of actual, hands on, experience & wisdom in that specific thing do/suggest, if they want to have a good and straight-forward experience with that thing, of-course.
There is definitely a case for learning by tinkering, in that case I'd say get a empty directory/disk/file and just start doing random things you want to do without worry of damaging anything else. I learned many things this way.
There is also reading the manuals and docs, they were written in (metaphorical) blood.

I think this is pretty run of the mill stuff?
 
How's that tool compare to this at the end of a update script?

Code: 
rsync -a --no-times --checksum --checksum-choice='sha1' '/boot/loader.efi' '/boot/efi/EFI/BOOT/bootaa64.efi'
 
baaz said:
I have followers? That's news to me.
But yes my advice to anyone starting out with a new piece of teach would be to learn and do what people with decades of actual, hands on, experience & wisdom in that specific thing do/suggest, if they want to have a good and straight-forward experience with that thing, of-course.
There is definitely a case for learning by tinkering, in that case I'd say get a empty directory/disk/file and just start doing random things you want to do without worry of damaging anything else. I learned many things this way.
There is also reading the manuals and docs, they were written in (metaphorical) blood.

I think this is pretty run of the mill stuff?
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Absolutely and with VMs so accessible now, the only reason not to tinker with whatever catches your fancy is the time involved in doing so as you can usually set things up so that even if you badly screw it up, at least you've still got a system to work with. That was not the case when I started out on computers in the early '90s when DOS would let you completely trash the filesystem by deleting the . entry in the directory and backing a system up probably meant 4 or 5 dozen 3.5" floppy disks for most people.
 
Well, as many threads here, it turns into nothing.
Few have answered to the main and only question.

So, continue to discuss about anything. Continue to argue in the void. In the meantime, fortunately, some people, will solve - or try to solve - real problems.
 
Having to manually update loader is odd compared to every other OS I've used.

While that tool is cool, I'm still curious how it compares to a more-generic rsync check on EFI.

I'm not a fan of bootcode, sectors, and etc on MBR/Legacy set-ups, but might sooner figure out a way to script something similar so I can learn what happens (tool looks convenient but I don't like abstracting stuff I don't understand :p)
 
Espionage724 said:
Having to manually update loader is odd compared to every other OS I've used.

While that tool is cool, I'm still curious how it compares to a more-generic rsync check on EFI.

I'm not a fan of bootcode, sectors, and etc on MBR/Legacy set-ups, but might sooner figure out a way to script something similar so I can learn what happens (tool looks convenient but I don't like abstracting stuff I don't understand :p)
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So, I have to point out to this thread for all technical questions: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/...gure-how-to-update-the-freebsd-loaders.94237/

I will very pleased to answer in the limit of my own knowledge, of course. And if I can't, I have no doubt that some posters here will supersede me...
 
kpedersen said:
You were right? Doesn't sound like it. FreeBSD hasn't adopted any of your ideas. This suggests you could be wrong.
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If you read the official instructions for efi loaders update and my script, you will see some similitudes. I wrote this script well before these instructions. I don't want to say I'm on the origin because, first, I don't know (it's not deep science, by the way), second, I don't care. What is care for me is the way this thing goes.

My only goal is that, in the end, the average FreeBSD user makes its life easier. And I will work to this "life" as much as I can do.
 
To return to the subject, please, I just ask, consider a project, even a vague idea, as a new and valuable material. Maybe it will lead to nowhere, but maybe it will open new horizons.

You see, I started speaking of an idea of mine just as an example, and whatever you can think or argue, there is no debate about its usefulness. I'm sorry I had to defend loaders-update in this thread. Somehow I regret, because it's not the point.

More you are FreeBSD knowledgeable, more you have to help the project. That's the message.
 
So, what was the point of this thread? Nothing technical but knowledgeable...
There's something with the bootloader file versions that involved arguments?

I think in case of bootloader problems, everybody will pull the fixed version from a release installer image and not even consider installing a port to upgrade it. But that's probably not a solution because reasons. You can catch a zero-day with full privilege escalation within the bootloader.
 
kpedersen said:
A 'junior' FreeBSD member could well be someone who has dealt with UNIX/Linux for decades in their professional work and is now jumping into development. This is the kind of junior who will inherit the project. I feel you may be conflating these guys with casual users who just want a novel OS to watch youtube and play Steam DRM Platform games.
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I am not a junior, even though I am a newcomer to FreeBSD. And no, I do not have neither Unix background nor Linux experience. I am not a programmer at all, and I do not have any sysadmin skills either. I escaped MS Windows 11 in favor of FreeBSD for its simplicity, transparency, and for my independence. Not for DRM: I do not gamble, I do not play games, and even do not watch movies.

I have read the handbook cover to cover, but I only read some manuals when I need use them. I find it easier when requirements and options are intuitive, clear and without documentation. For example, I use x11-wm/xfce on my home desktop and sysutils/webmin on a community server for its visual appeal and transparency, because they does not hide nor change anything on its own.

I appreciate the work developers do, but there are other important jobs in life as well. That is why I am grateful to Emrion for sysutils/loaders-update and for his concern about the future of FreeBSD. Thank you so much!
 
vienuolis said:
I am a newcomer to FreeBSD. And no, I do not have neither Unix background nor Linux experience. I am not a programmer at all, and I do not have any sysadmin skills either.
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So that is what is typically referred to as a 'junior'. And that's fine. If you do have enough interest in FreeBSD and decide to progress your experience in all those things and one day be senior enough to contribute to and inherit FreeBSD, you will start to look at what makes it tick.

You will e.g. look at what webmin automates, you will write many of these scripts manually. And likely learn C (if you want to work on FreeBSD core). This is how its always been. There are plenty of people who do it (there are more contributors today than any time in FreeBSD's past which is great news for the future of FreeBSD).

Playing about with any software in the external 3rd party ports collection is a completely fine way to gain experience too.
 
Erichans said:
I agree that updating the boot loader is often needed and therefore important with ZFS on root (especially when a zpool upgrade is in play); however a boot loader also gets updated for reasons other than ZFS alignment. I don't know of an example where it is actually obligatory in all circumstances but, in FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE Release Notes:
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I wasn't very clear there, by install I meant install of a base system update . My update script installs kernel+world into a new BE and then copies the loader.efi from that BE into the boot directory that's selected in the BIOS. It seems to me that this has the best chance of working without manual intervention detailed in UPDATING.
 
Emrion said:
So, I have to point out to this thread for all technical questions: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/utility-that-tries-to-figure-how-to-update-kronometreonlinethe-freebsd-loaders.94237/

I will very pleased to answer in the limit of my own knowledge, of course. And if I can't, I have no doubt that some posters here will supersede me...
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Emrion, I appreciate the effort you put into loaders-update and the genuine care for FreeBSD that comes through in your posts. The script clearly helps some users, and that is valuable. At the same time, the long-standing approach of documented manual updates and the feedback from people who work closely with the boot path still seem to hold for many setups. If there is room to improve the official process, contributions that go through the usual review channels would be the strongest way to move things forward that is what i think.
 
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