Excitement and opportunity for the future of FBSD

PCUser

PCUser

First of all I have to say FreeBSD 15 is spectacular and I really like the direction the project is going (regarding the package system and all that). System compatibility also looks to have made solid improvements, including in the field of WLAN drivers.

I think now is a great opportunity to diversify FBSD further. It has become more and more easier to be able to run it as a regular desktop. I have used GhostBSD, which (in simplistic form without being pedantic) is just FBSD with an easy graphic installer and launcher, and I have to say it was fantastic. Apart from a few niggles, it functions just as a popular Linux distro is expected to. Linux diehards love to push the idea that *BSD is a dinosaur that can't run anything, but we all know how superficially false that is.

There is a huge strength that the BSD family has which is the lack of a fragmented environment. Linux is divided and split into hundreds of pawns. The beauty of FBSD is that it is one project, one team, one vision and philosophy. And that means less conflicts and crap like Systemd. The Linux world has a few somewhat notable 'brands' like Ubuntu and Fedora, but the fragmentation is extreme and it's why still the average person knows little about them compared to Windows and Mac. But we have the opportunity to unite behind this FreeBSD brand and make it grow. Let Beastie become as recognisable as Tux, at the very least.

My recent experiences with GhostBSD (which led me to making this thread) has fully convinced me that FreeBSD itself is a truly universal operating system. For the most serious sysadmins, for the big servers, for the routers and all the way to an average desktop user. One could argue that some Linux distros also achieve this, but Linux is just a kernel with fragmented distros. And Windows, well it isn't free and it's a corporation's product. FBSD therefore holds a unique advantage in its arsenal that I think is unmatched by anything else. Good opportunity also during a time of increasing frustration with Microsoft's decisions. I hope the community takes note!

What do I want to see in the future? I hope by FreeBSD 16 (end 2027) we will see the continual improvements under the hood for security and packaging, making it even better for that sector. And on the front end, an installer offering a choice between the current wizard and an 'express' mode for the more beginner type of person, probably leading directly to a DE of choice. It would also be great to see the GhostBSD team merge into the FBSD project, perhaps offering their version as an 'Edition' of FBSD (or make theirs into the express installer), perfect for those who want to easily get into it, yet uniting it under one FreeBSD brand. By the way, Ghost's new Gershwin DE is so nice and fresh, a modern take on Window Maker and I feel it goes very well with *BSD and especially it being unique here and not just one of the other DEs that are common in the Linux world.
 
I'm quite keen on FreeBSD. I have a slightly different vision of the future.

I don't want FreeBSD to become a desktop OS. Linux has tried to do too much, and recent changes that negatively impact Linux's abilities as a server are being pushed by the desktop Linux crowd. It's long past time for them to split, and have server and desktop distros with very different software stacks.

FreeBSD is an excellent server, and that's where I would prefer the focus to be in the future.

FreeBSD happens to be a good UNIX workstation too, however that's different than a desktop OS. Maintaining workstation code sounds fine, as long as it doesn't impose changes on the core mission of being a server.
 
RussellASC said:
I'm quite keen on FreeBSD. I have a slightly different vision of the future.

I don't want FreeBSD to become a desktop OS. Linux has tried to do too much, and recent changes that negatively impact Linux's abilities as a server are being pushed by the desktop Linux crowd. It's long past time for them to split, and have server and desktop distros with very different software stacks.

FreeBSD is an excellent server, and that's where I would prefer the focus to be in the future.

FreeBSD happens to be a good UNIX workstation too, however that's different than a desktop OS. Maintaining workstation code sounds fine, as long as it doesn't impose changes on the core mission of being a server.
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Nice take, but maybe a small misunderstanding. I am not saying that FreeBSD has to "become" (so to speak) a desktop OS, but am saying that I fully believe it already is a functioning one. It already has solid (if not yet perfect) hardware support and decent basic (office, multimedia etc.) app support, and other stuff likely can be webapps using Firefox. All of this without the disadvantages of Linux and Windows. That's a clear winner to me from a desktop perspective.

FreeBSD itself doesn't even have to change, as it is already universal! So what I really mean here is to simply expose it further to desktop users and provide an easier alternative way for installing (with a choice for picking a graphical environment and immediately boot into that post-setup), which GhostBSD does. It's that very entry point that will make it more attractive to such users.
 
PCUser said:
Nice take, but maybe a small misunderstanding. I am not saying that FreeBSD has to "become" (so to speak) a desktop OS, but am saying that I fully believe it already is a functioning one. It already has solid (if not yet perfect) hardware support and decent basic (office, multimedia etc.) app support, and other stuff likely can be webapps using Firefox. All of this without the disadvantages of Linux and Windows. That's a clear winner to me from a desktop perspective.

FreeBSD itself doesn't even have to change, as it is already universal! So what I really mean here is to simply expose it further to desktop users and provide an easier alternative way for installing (with a choice for picking a graphical environment and immediately boot into that post-setup), which GhostBSD does. It's that very entry point that will make it more attractive to such users.
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I'm not sure courting end users should be the goal. Look at what Gnome, Wayland, and even newer Firefox versions are doing. They are requiring more and more Linux-only software and design choices (pulseaudio, Wayland only, systemd, etc). To run end users applications from Linux we have a rapidly scaling problem of integrating those into FreeBSD the FreeBSD way, or we butcher the core of FreeBSD to make it more Linux like. To appease end users.

Appeasing end users is exactly what I don't want to do if it requires changing FreeBSD. They can run Linux. FreeBSD should prioritize being a server, and perhaps a UNIX workstation for engineering types.
 
RussellASC said:
They are requiring more and more Linux-only software and design choices (pulseaudio, Wayland only, systemd, etc).
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Actually, they are designing to the platform that uses those. The platform has the requirement, not the applications.


Appeasing end users is exactly what I don't want to do if it requires changing FreeBSD. They can run Linux. FreeBSD should prioritize being a server, and perhaps a UNIX workstation for engineering types.
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Actually, maybe FreeBSD should become the base platform that can run all others (easily). You want some special Linux app or Windows app? FreeBSD can run both at the same time! Just use the Linuxalator and Winalator!
 
A regular desktop is so easy. There actually should be a document with a democratically decided sequence of installation commands leading to a full FreeBSD graphical desktop.
I use a bald X.org with openbox and xterm only. No need for anything else in my standard installation. Forever resident programs are needed for barely anything.
 
I tend to agree with RussellASC in that BSD should remain an expert system. ie, you need to know something about computers (or at least have a hacker's curiosity) to get something out of it. We (I) don't want the mass hordes poisoning the ecosystem with their silly ideas, much as has happened with Linux. I've been using UNIXs since the 1980s and I can tell you anecdotally that you are starting down a slippery slope that ends with technical mediocrity when you cater to the whims of the masses, overriding the search for technical excellence.
 
kent_dorfman766 said:
I tend to agree with RussellASC in that BSD should remain an expert system. ie, you need to know something about computers (or at least have a hacker's curiosity) to get something out of it. We (I) don't want the mass hordes poisoning the ecosystem with their silly ideas, much as has happened with Linux. I've been using UNIXs since the 1980s and I can tell you anecdotally that you are starting down a slippery slope that ends with technical mediocrity when you cater to the whims of the masses, overriding the search for technical excellence.
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There's truth in your words. There also may be a middle point. In any case, the expert user should never be put to the side, in my opinion. Also, I'm aware that, many times, searching for the middle ground, the end result is going to the unwanted extreme (in this case, abandoning the technical user and thinking only about the regular one).
 
AlfredoLlaquet said:
There's truth in your words. There also may be a middle point. In any case, the expert user should never be put to the side, in my opinion. Also, I'm aware that, many times, searching for the middle ground, the end result is going to the unwanted extreme (in this case, abandoning the technical user and thinking only about the regular one).
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Respectfully -- No room for middle ground on this one. Democracy is fine for social clubs but not in the pursuit of technical excellence. I think if you look at the distribution of postings on the forum you will note that long standing contributors favor expert system status, and it is more often the noobs that want to "rock the boat" so to speak. I would encourage them to sit back and learn before attempting to change the nature of the ecosystem. One of the big reasons Linux is such a mess is because it has become more a social experiment than a technical endeavour.
 
kent_dorfman766 said:
Respectfully -- No room for middle ground on this one. Democracy is fine for social clubs but not in the pursuit of technical excellence. I think if you look at the distribution of postings on the forum you will note that long standing contributors favor expert system status, and it is more often the noobs that want to "rock the boat" so to speak. I would encourage them to sit back and learn before attempting to change the nature of the ecosystem. One of the big reasons Linux is such a mess is because it has become more a social experiment than a technical endeavour.
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Well, I'm a noob, after all. I just happen to love FreeBSD. Your words sound scary, though. I don't pursue technical excellence. I pursue using my computer safely and satisfyingly. In any case, my opinion counts for nothing, so I'm just passing the time here.
 
AlfredoLlaquet said:
Well, I'm a noob, after all. I just happen to love FreeBSD. Your words sound scary, though. I don't pursue technical excellence. I pursue using my computer safely and satisfyingly. In any case, my opinion counts for nothing, so I'm just passing the time here.
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Not true. Your opinion is valid...I'm just asking that you take some time to understand why things are as they are before endorsing revolution...Evolution is fine. Revolution is not.
 
kent_dorfman766 said:
Not true. Your opinion is valid...I'm just asking that you take some time to understand why things are as they are before endorsing revolution...Evolution is fine. Revolution is not.
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I'm not endorsing revolution, my friend. Please note that I pointed out that I found very important to always have expert users as a priority.
 
kent_dorfman766 said:
Respectfully -- No room for middle ground on this one. Democracy is fine for social clubs but not in the pursuit of technical excellence. I think if you look at the distribution of postings on the forum you will note that long standing contributors favor expert system status, and it is more often the noobs that want to "rock the boat" so to speak. I would encourage them to sit back and learn before attempting to change the nature of the ecosystem. One of the big reasons Linux is such a mess is because it has become more a social experiment than a technical endeavour.
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The way that FreeBSD, and probably the other *BSDs, operate is more or less the middle ground. There's some stuff that's a part of the core install and really can't be left out that needs to be there and we have little choice in, there's some other stuff that we can choose to install or not on a system by system basis install. But, the majority of the stuff where there'd be any point in having elections and voting for is in the ports tree and people install the stuff there or not based completely on their needs at the time and their mood. It's part of why Wayland is largely a non-issue over here, versus being an absolute pain in the back for people that don't necessarily even want to bother with it over on Linux. People here install it, or they don't, and for the most part, nobody is ever going to have to switch if it doesn't meet our needs unless it gets so popular that nobody is continuing to work on X11 implementations.
 
Regarding the topic of technical excellence. Let me point out tha, users in general, even sys admins, don't necessarily make good developers of operating systems.
Additionally, there is also the issue that to support recent hardware (and I'm going to be liberal here and by recent I mean last 3 to 5 years), will require the help of vendors. And you only tend to offer that support if there are a non negligible amount of users using said hardware (or a very good business case). When you don't have that support you are left with using linux code to get wifi at decent rates or init of recent gpus. And yes, you can stick to old hardware, or switch to risc-v, for as long as it lives and functions, but that isn't a path to relevance.

As is FreeBSD offers a good middle ground, and kudos to the freebsd foundation for trying to improve the lives of those that wish to use FreeBSD as their main OS instead of limiting it to roles where Linux can be a better option in most cases.
 
msplsh said:
So funny people in here arguing to keep people out when that's the opposite of what the Foundation is trying to do.
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I would agree, it does appear that forum users are in some ways at odds with the stated goals of the FreeBSD Foundation. However, I see the optional desktop on install move as a great idea. I don't know if it's a maintainable idea but it's a good one. As well as installing wifi drivers and graphic drivers during install. This is something that OpenBSD offers as well and it does make installing the system more usable depending on each users use case.
 
The "stated goals of the FreeBSD Foundation" to a large extent come from the donors. If one particularly large donor puts in a large 6-digit number of $$$ into the foundation to make desktop usage of FreeBSD work better, that becomes the goal of the foundation. So in some way, this is not a democracy. Interestingly, that large donor is a small commercial company that is part of the US intelligence agency ecosystem (you can find their name on the foundations' web page, at the top of the list of 2025 donors).

LibreQuest said:
As well as installing wifi drivers and graphic drivers during install. This is something that OpenBSD offers as well and it does make installing the system more usable depending on each users use case.
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I have installed OpenBSD maybe two dozen times. It annoys me that I get forced to install X windows components, which will never be used. Over half the computers in my house are headless (don't have screen, keyboard or mouse connected). I don't want WiFi drivers on my main server system. One man's "more usable" is another mans "useless clutter that makes upgrades run slower, increases technical risk, and makes configuration more complex". Just as an example: I now have written down instructions on how to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi, and one of the first steps in there is: disable bluetooth, disable the video output, and try to disable WiFi as much as possible. Fortunately, the RPi foundation ships a pre-packaged Debian install image that has no graphics/desktop software.

The fact FreeBSD 15 has X and KDE on the install image probably means that I will never upgrade to it, and switch away from FreeBSD when 14.X goes EoL.
 
ralphbsz said:
The "stated goals of the FreeBSD Foundation" to a large extent come from the donors. If one particularly large donor puts in a large 6-digit number of $$$ into the foundation to make desktop usage of FreeBSD work better, that becomes the goal of the foundation. So in some way, this is not a democracy. Interestingly, that large donor is a small commercial company that is part of the US intelligence agency ecosystem (you can find their name on the foundations' web page, at the top of the list of 2025 donors).


I have installed OpenBSD maybe two dozen times. It annoys me that I get forced to install X windows components, which will never be used. Over half the computers in my house are headless (don't have screen, keyboard or mouse connected). I don't want WiFi drivers on my main server system. One man's "more usable" is another mans "useless clutter that makes upgrades run slower, increases technical risk, and makes configuration more complex". Just as an example: I now have written down instructions on how to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi, and one of the first steps in there is: disable bluetooth, disable the video output, and try to disable WiFi as much as possible. Fortunately, the RPi foundation ships a pre-packaged Debian install image that has no graphics/desktop software.

The fact FreeBSD 15 has X and KDE on the install image probably means that I will never upgrade to it, and switch away from FreeBSD when 14.X goes EoL.
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If you don't run fw_update you won't get the drivers on OpenBSD I believe. So just don't run that so you don't get those things installed. Also, answering "no" when the OpenBSD installer asks if you want X installed will prevent having X installed. Installing X and drivers is also optional in FreeBSD. So useless clutter is up to the user upon installation on both systems.
 
ralphbsz said:
The "stated goals of the FreeBSD Foundation" to a large extent come from the donors. If one particularly large donor puts in a large 6-digit number of $$$ into the foundation to make desktop usage of FreeBSD work better, that becomes the goal of the foundation. So in some way, this is not a democracy. Interestingly, that large donor is a small commercial company that is part of the US intelligence agency ecosystem (you can find their name on the foundations' web page, at the top of the list of 2025 donors).


I have installed OpenBSD maybe two dozen times. It annoys me that I get forced to install X windows components, which will never be used. Over half the computers in my house are headless (don't have screen, keyboard or mouse connected). I don't want WiFi drivers on my main server system. One man's "more usable" is another mans "useless clutter that makes upgrades run slower, increases technical risk, and makes configuration more complex". Just as an example: I now have written down instructions on how to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi, and one of the first steps in there is: disable bluetooth, disable the video output, and try to disable WiFi as much as possible. Fortunately, the RPi foundation ships a pre-packaged Debian install image that has no graphics/desktop software.

The fact FreeBSD 15 has X and KDE on the install image probably means that I will never upgrade to it, and switch away from FreeBSD when 14.X goes EoL.
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On FreeBSD install they can put a version of windows for me.
I exit installer , go to shell and grab the base.txz & kernel.txz :)
 
I can speak as a non-computer scientist / hacker / sysadmin/ ... Only an end user. But i don't like when people want to use something without any learning.
FreeBSD can be used in companies and administrations if there is a manager/system administrator. It's different for individuals.
I'm helping other in the small city where i live to install GNU/Linux. 95% of theses peoples don't want to learn how GNU/Linux work. They make regularly mistake when reading tuto that are not exactly what they want (or for other distro). Every weeks i need to repair broken install...
 
FreeBSD would be better being a "base OS" for distros like GhostBSD (adding some more components) and any other styles including small embedded use-cases (remove many excessive component, add missing drivers and modify something).
So to make downstream distros to be efficiently maintained, any changes and additions should better contributed to FreeBSD (regardless base or ports).
I think what Netflix and some others are doing are for this purpose.
 
PCUser said:
First of all I have to say FreeBSD 15 is spectacular and I really like the direction the project is going (regarding the package system and all that). System compatibility also looks to have made solid improvements, including in the field of WLAN drivers.

I think now is a great opportunity to diversify FBSD further. It has become more and more easier to be able to run it as a regular desktop. I have used GhostBSD, which (in simplistic form without being pedantic) is just FBSD with an easy graphic installer and launcher, and I have to say it was fantastic. Apart from a few niggles, it functions just as a popular Linux distro is expected to. Linux diehards love to push the idea that *BSD is a dinosaur that can't run anything, but we all know how superficially false that is.

There is a huge strength that the BSD family has which is the lack of a fragmented environment. Linux is divided and split into hundreds of pawns. The beauty of FBSD is that it is one project, one team, one vision and philosophy. And that means less conflicts and crap like Systemd. The Linux world has a few somewhat notable 'brands' like Ubuntu and Fedora, but the fragmentation is extreme and it's why still the average person knows little about them compared to Windows and Mac. But we have the opportunity to unite behind this FreeBSD brand and make it grow. Let Beastie become as recognisable as Tux, at the very least.

My recent experiences with GhostBSD (which led me to making this thread) has fully convinced me that FreeBSD itself is a truly universal operating system. For the most serious sysadmins, for the big servers, for the routers and all the way to an average desktop user. One could argue that some Linux distros also achieve this, but Linux is just a kernel with fragmented distros. And Windows, well it isn't free and it's a corporation's product. FBSD therefore holds a unique advantage in its arsenal that I think is unmatched by anything else. Good opportunity also during a time of increasing frustration with Microsoft's decisions. I hope the community takes note!

What do I want to see in the future? I hope by FreeBSD 16 (end 2027) we will see the continual improvements under the hood for security and packaging, making it even better for that sector. And on the front end, an installer offering a choice between the current wizard and an 'express' mode for the more beginner type of person, probably leading directly to a DE of choice. It would also be great to see the GhostBSD team merge into the FBSD project, perhaps offering their version as an 'Edition' of FBSD (or make theirs into the express installer), perfect for those who want to easily get into it, yet uniting it under one FreeBSD brand. By the way, Ghost's new Gershwin DE is so nice and fresh, a modern take on Window Maker and I feel it goes very well with *BSD and especially it being unique here and not just one of the other DEs that are common in the Linux world.
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I am friends with Eric from GhostBSD. Gershwin is a separate project with now Probono (Simon Peter) the author of app image and myself. Now we have another new contributor who is ramping up quickly and others offering to help. As soon as things stabilize from all the improvement's to move to all native components we hope to push updates to GhostBSD.

I used to work for the company that sponsored PCBSD, FreeNAS as well which seems like an eternity ago. I think it’s everyone’s dream to do this kind of work or just in general something they love doing as the day job. I appreciate the thought.
 
i a agree alot. Just freebsd and then you install a package ghost-bsd-ify it. Or any other derivative.
Don't know why derivatives want to change everything.
 
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