Europe throws Whois privacy plan in the trash

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Rigoletto

Rigoletto

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#26
I don't think there is any country where filing in court to get a judge's order is "simple and cheap", and in particular not fast.
The 'Injunction' is present is almost all jurisdictions and normally you would just need that to have the clearance to get the info you need, since you need that info to actually fill anything relevant in court.

Injunctions can often be granted without ever actually filling anything but requesting it directly to the judge - you can have one in like 15 min. It would cost a few bulks in my country ( eventually for free if the part is an individual ) plus the lawyer fees are not that high - the thing in here could be made for US$100 or less if you have a lawyer you use often ( depending on the situation an individual can use a public available lawyer and pay nothing for all of that) - and not much more than that on most parts of EU.

[EDIT]

IDK the practices under the crazy US legal system, but on jurisdictions under Civil Law most business have either:

  1. a contract with law firm where they pay a monthly value, like a subscription, or
  2. bigger than medium business often have lawyers hired ( employee ), bar France because the Barreau de Avocats does not allow lawyers to be hired. In France a business can have a juriste hired but not lawyers - but I think in the US Law that difference does not exist.
 

obsigna

Aspiring Daemon

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#27
Every medal got 2 sides. I owned a lot of domains over the years, and I really hated the start of receiving spam just a few days after my e-mail address was unconditionally made public to any single idiot in the world. My domains are registered with a German web hoster, who recently simply ignored the complaints of ICANN and removed all personal data from the whois records. I can't tell enough about how fine I am with this.
whois obsigna.com
Code:
Domain Name: obsigna.com
Registry Domain ID: 14266176
Registrar Whois Server: whois.cronon.net
Registrar URL: http://www.cronon.net
Updated Date: 2013-07-05T00:00:00Z
Creation Date: 2013-07-05T00:00:00Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2018-07-05T00:00:00Z
Registrar: Cronon AG
Registrar IANA ID: 141
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse@strato.de
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +49.303001460
Reseller:
Domain Status: ok https://icann.org/epp#ok
Registrant Organization:
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Country: BR
Registrant Email: domaincontact@reg.xlink.net
Name Server: docks18.rzone.de
Name Server: shades19.rzone.de
DNSSEC: unsigned
URL of the ICANN WHOIS Data Problem Reporting System: http://wdprs.internic.net/
>>> Last update of WHOIS database: 2018-07-21T05:23:23Z <<<
 
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Rigoletto

Rigoletto

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#28
So you expect me to file a court case in a European court (6000 miles away), pay a lawyer a few $10K, and wait a few months for a judge to issue an order, just so I can find out whether the IP address that was doing weird things on my server was from a fly-by-night ISP in Elbonia, or it was Netcraft? Sorry, that fails the reality check.
If the thing become minimally well designed any ICANN affiliate should be able to give the information.
 

obsigna

Aspiring Daemon

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#29
...
whois on the resulting IP address:
Code:
...
Ref:            https://rdap.arin.net/registry/ip/198.46.80.0
That is the information I really need, and which the europeans want to hide: If someone from this IP address (which exactly corresponds to the host that was attacking my server) is doing something bad, here is a toll-free phone number where I can reach a human that can put a stop to it, because they are worried about their own reputation.

I have a real problem with the European Commission wanting to hide that because of some misplaced privacy concern.
Note, I may be wrong. Anyway, AFAIK, the registration records for the allocated IP's are the responsibility of the 5 RIR's, namely AFRINIC, APNIC, ARIN (your example), LACNIC and RIPE. These records are provided by the whois(1) tool for convenience, however, do not belong to the database of registered domains. AFAIK, the 5 RIR's are not challenged by the EU commission for their IP databases.
 

Chris_H

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#30
NOTE: multiquoting is broken on this forum. Apologies for the mess.

Attorneys write laws for the senators
You are distracting the truth. Lawyers help with writing laws to make sure they are legal but lawyers are not a requirement.
most of whom were also lawyers, or went to law school before becoming senators
Also not true. Less than 40% of the House are lawyers and just over 50% in the Senate. (From briefly Googling.)
to approve, and enact into law.
Again, this is a false statement. One need not be a lawyer to become a Senator or a Congressman to approve and enact laws.
I'll simply summarize here, due to the (multi)quoting problem. In hopes to reduce the mess. :)
drhowarddrfine . You've broken up my sentences, which completely eliminates the context they intended.
Which also "distracts the truth".
The point I attempted to make. Is that those who write, and enact laws are more likely to ensure that the laws that may affect them. Affect them in a positive fashion. While I cannot cite one at this moment, I have little doubt that I can find numerous laws that were crafted to benefit themselves. Why would you take such issue with my comments regarding this? This sort of thing isn't restricted to attorneys. I just find it more despicable, when it comes to law. As I expect higher standards, from something that so profoundly affects society as a whole, and as such, should be a noble position. That's why I get so angry. I was to become an attorney. Everyone who knew me, in my younger days. All said I'd make a great lawer. But the more I saw, the less I felt I could accomplish. As I'd most always be at odds with my colleagues. It's a bit of a club. Much glad handing, and you scratch my back. I'll scratch yours. Sort of thing. It disgusted me, and there was no way, I'd ever be able to make any headway to "clean things up". What judge would ever rule in my favor? Indeed this not all without exception. But it's been going on a long time, and I don't feel I could have had any sense of pride working in that field. Given I felt my efforts would have been in vain.
Lastly, wouldn't you agree that 40% is a reasonably high percentage rate? I would also note that many of those in the senate whom didn't become attorneys. Did study law. :)

--Chris
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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#31
The point I attempted to make. Is that those who write, and enact laws are more likely to ensure that the laws that may affect them. Affect them in a positive fashion.
This is another opinion not based on fact. I do not recall if you are in the USA but you show a lack of knowledge as to how this all works here.
I cannot cite one at this moment
Yes. This is the typical response.

In any case, this has gotten political and I will not participate in political topics anywhere, especially here on FreeBSD where it's not allowed.
 

getopt

Aspiring Daemon

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#32
If anything, the EU has become a stumbling block to progress, all in the name of "privacy".
You started political political propaganda as one of the first responders to this thread.
My second line is my comment about people, the EU commission in this case, dabbling in things I believe they have no knowledge of.
You continued leashing out on the EU. With all respects, but I doubt you can present any knowledge about the EU besides the populistic noise that makes it over the Atlantic nowadays.
In any case, this has gotten political and I will not participate in political topics anywhere, especially here on FreeBSD where it's not allowed.
You were the one who made it political. And like many times before you use this argument, when sentiment turns against you. And unfortunately you are very successful with your strategy here in the FreeBSD forums making the moderators to act on your behalf.
 

obsigna

Aspiring Daemon

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#33
Yes, this is an political issue by it's nature, i.e. imposed by law makers on us FreeBSD users and even more seriously FreeBSD server admins. The question to us, is how we deal with all these new privacy regulations. And, I believe that it is a valid topic on the FreeBSD forums, even if it becomes a little bit political here and there, but this is because politics is imposed to us from external forces.
 

Maelstorm

Well-Known Member

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#37
Here's my viewpoint. ICANN is no longer under contract from the DOC. They are now an independent governing body of the internet. Their rules are that domain registrant information is public and accessible through whois. There was a recent case in Germany that challenged this. So if a registrar in Germany follows ICANN rules, they run afoul of German laws. But if they follow German laws, then they run the risk of being sanctioned by ICANN. Last I heard, ICANN has been playing hardball on this. They are demanding that ALL registered domain names have a proper whois record, regardless of what any local laws are.
 

ekingston

Active Member

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#38
I disagree. In my opinion, if you physically connect a computer to the world-wide network, and have the ability to send packets with that computer that can do real damage to other people, then it has to be possible to find and contact you.

But note: I didn't say that it has to be possible to find the person who paid for that server, or who generated the content served by the server. I need to be able to find the person who connected the server to the network, and who has the physical power to make the server stop misbehaving. I have no problem with the fact that the owner of the DNS name can be anonymous (meaning hiding behind an opaque registrar, like in the example I gave above). That's fine. I am a strong believer in free speech rights, including the right to anonymous free speech. What I'm not a fan of is anonymous drive-by shooting (using network packets).
Do you actually understand the whois service? It is not a registry of server owners. It's a registry of domain owners. Anyone can put a server on the Internet without having their name show up in a whois search. You don't need a domain name to get an IP address. You only need a contract with an ISP or hosting company. The ISPs and hosting companies don't publish a list of contacts for their clients.
 

ralphbsz

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#39
And everyone who reserves or uses an IP address (typically ISPs) need to register with their local IP registry (around here that is ARIN), and that registration is accessible via whois, and has to be. Admittedly, that's typically not the end user, but the ISP (which today usually means the cloud provider). That's the part of whois I have been talking about. That's the part of whois which I need to continue functioning, with full contact information available immediately, for someone who can control egress of packets coming from that IP address.
 

obsigna

Aspiring Daemon

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#40
... That's the part of whois which I need to continue functioning, with full contact information available immediately, for someone who can control egress of packets coming from that IP address.
And that part is not challanged by the EU commission.
 

Chris_H

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#42
This is another opinion not based on fact. I do not recall if you are in the USA but you show a lack of knowledge as to how this all works here.
drhowarddrfine said:
Yes. This is the typical response.
drhowarddrfine said:
In any case, this has gotten political and I will not participate in political topics anywhere, especially here on FreeBSD where it's not allowed.
I understand you aren't interested in further participation. I respect that. especially] given that all participation in the forums is purely voluntary.
I regret that my prior posts were done hastily. As $WORK$ didn't permit anything more.
I now find I have adequate time for due diligence.
drhowarddrfine said:
Lawyers don't enact laws, the senate does.
This is only true for the FED. Municipalities are a completely different matter.
Chris_H said:
I cannot cite one at this moment...
drhowarddrfine said:
Yes. This is the typical response.
I'm going to cite one now. There are many to choose from. But one that I'm personally familiar with, is BSL (Breed Specific Legislation). I'm using this example. Because this was ruled upon by both the FED, and again, on the State level. It failed on the FED level. But was passed in several states in the US. As well as Toronto, Canada.
I have a great deal of 1st hand knowledge in this area. As I have been training animals for about 63% of my life. I've had bad hearing most of my life, and have had to personally train animals for state, and federal certification, as a result. IM(not so)HO the FED actually got it right, this time. With few exceptions, a dog, is a dog. There is little distinction between breeds, except (physical capabilities). So to put things in perspective; "fecth boy!"Dog fetches ball. The dog did what it was told. We'll reward that dog, by putting that dog to sleep. Doesn't make much sense. Does it. But this is exactly what was legislated in a few states, and in Toronto. What's worse. Those whom determine what (specific) breed the dog is. Were conclusively found to be incapable of making the correct determination. Again. Doesn't make much sense. Does it.
While I could cite specific articles backing each of these points. I hesitate to do so. Because I might be accused of "cherry picking". A cursory search on the interweb. Will produce thousands of articles on this matter. As will the Wikipedia. I have already verified that.
You read, and decide for yourself. But do note. I have some 50yrs. of personal dog training experience, and feel well qualified to remark on this topic.
Lastly. This entire thread is "political". Which fairly disqualifies your decision to end this debate.

drhowarddrfine , none of this is intended as a "personal" attack. It's only intent is as a lively rebuttal. :)

--Chris
 

Chris_H

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#43
And everyone who reserves or uses an IP address (typically ISPs) need to register with their local IP registry (around here that is ARIN), and that registration is accessible via whois, and has to be. Admittedly, that's typically not the end user, but the ISP (which today usually means the cloud provider). That's the part of whois I have been talking about. That's the part of whois which I need to continue functioning, with full contact information available immediately, for someone who can control egress of packets coming from that IP address.
Hello, ralphbsz
The "whois" you're looking for, is what's known as an ASN (Autonomous System Number).
So you're in luck. Doesn't apply here. :)

HTH

--Chris
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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#44
This is only true for the FED. Municipalities are a completely different matter.
Still not true. Laws are created and enacted by councilmen or aldermen or whatever a town calls them and they are not likely lawyers though they can be. In my city, only one of the city aldermen is a lawyer but the mayor who would sign legislation is not. In my son's town, he's a police officer there, none of the city officials are lawyers.
 
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