2024: The year of desktop FreeBSD?

[BaronBS]

IMHO FreeBSD to be used as desktop it needs more testers and users, a lot of bugs are out there undiscovered in all DEs on FreeBSD, but if you use a window manager you can get it right easily, especially things like DWM which I use as my daily driver with FreeBSD 14, I have tried XFCE, GNOME and KDE and all of them has a lot of issues that can only been explained by lack of testing.

Can you show me a bug with XFCE?

 

[astyle]

Can you show me a bug with XFCE?

It does take a bit of exploring how a project is even organized... after 5 minutes of looking for a way to report a bug for XFCE, I found this with help of Google:

Service Desk · Xfce / xfdesktop · GitLab

Xfce's desktop manager

gitlab.xfce.org

But yeah, it is irritating to see people make unfounded claims that are based on cursory browsing of old complaints that spilled out from 10-year archives.

 

[BaronBS]

It does take a bit of exploring how a project is even organized... after 5 minutes of looking for a way to report a bug for XFCE, I found this with help of Google:

Service Desk · Xfce / xfdesktop · GitLab

Xfce's desktop manager

gitlab.xfce.org

But yeah, it is irritating to see people make unfounded claims that are based on cursory browsing of old complaints that spilled out from 10-year archives.

I 100% agree with you, but I can understand where he is coming from. IDK how it is now, but when I first moved to FBSD (a couple of years ago) I tried plasma and I didn't have a smooth exp as in linux, and it had a few missing features too (kde connect it not complete as in linux for example). I don't see that as a bug, IMHO a bug would be to ship a broken feature, so to speak.

But in the end the problem is lack of user, testers and maintainers. And this doesn't happens only with DE's, tor-browser is a few minor versions behind, the port works just fine, but a few onion sites don't work because of this (dread, for example).

It is a chicken and egg problem. It is difficult to get a fresh, stable and complete version of every port without enough maintainers, but it is also difficult to get new maintainers without more users and it is very difficult to get new users without a fresh, stable and complete version of every port in the tree.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love FBSD and I really like the work that Deb Goodkin is doing with the Foundation team. I think it is just a matter of time and hard work.

 

[Unixnut]

For what it is worth, I've been using Linux for 20+ years and have recently moved my main workstation to FreeBSD. Simply because Linux was getting more and more buggy and unreliable (most of my servers switched to FreeBSD years ago, except those that specifically need Linux).

Especially for things like the Nvidia drivers. The final straw came when a routine update broke the Nvidia drivers, and I could not recover without a wipe and reinstall. So decided to "reinstall" FreeBSD instead.

So I guess this is the experience of someone who is new to FreeBSD but who has used Linux a lot in the past.

As part of my migration I also am trying to port over my desktop setup. Windowmaker seems to actually work better on FreeBSD than on Linux, and I did have to install bash and make changes to my desktop scripts to take into account differences between the systems. Overall it has gone smoothly (I currently have one minor issue with keyboard layouts which is on another thread in the forum to resolve)

So far the experience is better than Linux, things "just work" together so much better. I have not had to do any odd hacks or other nonsense to get things working like I usually do on Linux. It just feels a lot more integrated, like it was designed to work together. No complications or difficulties with the Nvidia driver for example, which makes a nice change.

Another nice thing I've found on FreeBSD is audio. Linux struggles with this. Common problems on Linux include:

• One application takes exclusive control and I can't get sound from other systems unless I find that app and kill it. Other times it shares the audio output no problem. Seems sometimes there is an exclusive lock on ALSA, other times not.
• Some applications just don't work at all (no audio), usually for reasons I don't know (i.e. it is set to ALSA, everything is correct, no errors reported. Just no audio)
• Some fighting between different sound systems (some app defaults to ALSA, some default to pulseaudio, some use JACK, etc...)
• Moving a playing video or graphics will halt the sound output, which does not happen on FreeBSD

I was surprised to see FreeBSD still uses OSS (as that was retired years ago in Linux), but it is at OSS4 which actually seems to work better than the mess above.

So far the only major negative I have found with FreeBSD is the lack of suspend support. I liked to suspend my desktop to RAM overnight to save power yet keep my desktop state. Unfortunately this does not work on FreeBSD, so I have to either shut it down or let it idle overnight wasting electricity.

While the above is more an annoyance than a showstopper for running FreeBSD on a desktop, on a laptop it does become critical. I make heavy use of suspend-to-ram on my laptop when I am out and about to save power. I also use suspend-to-disk to power down the machine when the battery is low, allowing me to switch the battery with a fresh one and resume my work where I left off.

In addition when I tried to install FreeBSD on a laptop, I had issues getting the wifi and graphics working. Going back to a time of having to spend ages twiddling X configs to get a display was something I didn't want to go back to.

As such my Laptop will most likely be remaining Linux for the time being.

Beyond that I have to get used to not having all the software I had on Linux. A lot of open source software only targets Linux, but that is not a fault of FreeBSD itself, and with increasing popularity I can imagine more SW would take it into account.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… I was surprised to see FreeBSD still uses OSS (as that was retired years ago in Linux), but it is at OSS4 which actually seems to work better than the mess above. …

Combined use of PulseAudio + OSS with a USB audio device following wake from sleep (resume from suspend): <https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/651637>.

For audio support questions:

Multimedia/Gaming

Having problems with gaming or with running your new shiny and blinking gadget or watching DVDs, listening to CDs etc.?

forums.freebsd.org

… lack of suspend support. I liked to suspend my desktop to RAM …

What's your graphics card? Make and model, please.

 

[LibreQuest]

For what it is worth, I've been using Linux for 20+ years and have recently moved my main workstation to FreeBSD. Simply because Linux was getting more and more buggy and unreliable (most of my servers switched to FreeBSD years ago, except those that specifically need Linux).

Especially for things like the Nvidia drivers. The final straw came when a routine update broke the Nvidia drivers, and I could not recover without a wipe and reinstall. So decided to "reinstall" FreeBSD instead.

So I guess this is the experience of someone who is new to FreeBSD but who has used Linux a lot in the past.

As part of my migration I also am trying to port over my desktop setup. Windowmaker seems to actually work better on FreeBSD than on Linux, and I did have to install bash and make changes to my desktop scripts to take into account differences between the systems. Overall it has gone smoothly (I currently have one minor issue with keyboard layouts which is on another thread in the forum to resolve)

So far the experience is better than Linux, things "just work" together so much better. I have not had to do any odd hacks or other nonsense to get things working like I usually do on Linux. It just feels a lot more integrated, like it was designed to work together. No complications or difficulties with the Nvidia driver for example, which makes a nice change.

Another nice thing I've found on FreeBSD is audio. Linux struggles with this. Common problems include:

• One application takes exclusive control and I can't get sound from other systems unless I find that app and kill it. Other times it shares the audio output no problem. Seems sometimes there is an exclusive lock on ALSA, other times not.
• Some applications just don't work at all (no audio), usually for reasons I don't know (i.e. it is set to ALSA, everything is correct, no errors reported. Just no audio)
• Some fighting between different sound systems (some app defaults to ALSA, some default to pulseaudio, some use JACK, etc...)
• Moving a playing video or graphics will halt the sound output, which does not happen on FreeBSD

I was surprised to see FreeBSD still uses OSS (as that was retired years ago in Linux), but it is at OSS4 which actually seems to work better than the mess above.

So far the only major negative I have found with FreeBSD is the lack of suspend support. I liked to suspend my desktop to RAM overnight to save power yet keep my desktop state. Unfortunately this does not work on FreeBSD, so I have to either shut it down or let it idle overnight wasting electricity.

While the above is more an annoyance than a showstopper for running FreeBSD on a desktop, on a laptop it does become critical. I make heavy use of suspend-to-ram on my laptop when I am out and about to save power. I also use suspend-to-disk to power down the machine when the battery is low, allowing me to switch the battery with a fresh one and resume my work where I left off.

In addition when I tried to install FreeBSD on a laptop, I had issues getting the wifi and graphics working. Going back to a time of having to spend ages twiddling X configs to get a display was something I didn't want to go back to.

As such my Laptop will most likely be remaining Linux for the time being.

Beyond that I have to get used to not having all the software I had on Linux. A lot of open source software only targets Linux, but that is not a fault of FreeBSD itself, and with increasing popularity I can imagine more SW would take it into account.

There are some laptops that suspend and resume are supported with freebsd but not as many as on other systems. And I suggest picking up some supported wifi chips. I also moved from Linux after 20 years and have moved all of my systems over to freebsd but I do have a lot of wifi USB and internal WiFi cards on hand to swap out as needed. Some laptops just work and others don't. Of my laptops only 2 have suspend and resume support on freebsd. Desktop systems are a bit easier to work with although I have had issues with Wayland on Nvidia but not on Radeon or Intel.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

I was surprised to see FreeBSD still uses OSS (as that was retired years ago in Linux), but it is at OSS4 which actually seems to work better than the mess above.

I was also [pleasantly] surprised to see this. Anecdotally, I can't name a single supposedly "Linux-based" professional audio equipment that also doesn't use an extremely old kernel usually in conjunction with OSS and not any kind of ALSA or JACK. (One major hardware synthesizer manufacturer had to backport XHCI drivers to some ancient Linux 2.something version just for their modern control surfaces ... does OSS even run on a modern linux kernel?)

For me, 2024 is the year of the FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE/Plasma desktop. The final straw was: I had to completely bow out from Club Penguin recently with the news of some terrible github compression library shenanigans I'm sure we all heard about. I'm also drawn to FreeBSD for OSS capabilities as well, of course. For something to be suitable for desktop use I guess is also contingent on a certain tolerance for troubleshooting, reading docs, and perhaps a level of skill is involved? Personally, I've had much easier setup now just with X11/setting up a DE here on multiple machines than on any Linux distro before which didn't come preconfigured with drivers and DE.

I feel like I've got a lot of "unlearning" to do.. but it's good to be here

 

[Unixnut]

Combined use of PulseAudio + OSS with a USB audio device following wake from sleep (resume from suspend): <https://forums.freebsd.org/posts/651637>.

For audio support questions:

Multimedia/Gaming

Having problems with gaming or with running your new shiny and blinking gadget or watching DVDs, listening to CDs etc.?

forums.freebsd.org

What's your graphics card? Make and model, please.

vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0:    class=0x030000 rev=0xa1 hdr=0x00 vendor=0x10de device=0x0ffd subvendor=0x10de subdevice=0x0967
    vendor     = 'NVIDIA Corporation'
    device     = 'GK107 [NVS 510]'
    class      = display
    subclass   = VGA

 

[Unixnut]

There are some laptops that suspend and resume are supported with freebsd but not as many as on other systems. And I suggest picking up some supported wifi chips. I also moved from Linux after 20 years and have moved all of my systems over to freebsd but I do have a lot of wifi USB and internal WiFi cards on hand to swap out as needed. Some laptops just work and others don't. Of my laptops only 2 have suspend and resume support on freebsd. Desktop systems are a bit easier to work with although I have had issues with Wayland on Nvidia but not on Radeon or Intel.

I tried on a Thinkpad T490, as I have always used Thinkpads for their good Linux support (especially suspend/hibernate). The graphics problems I think are due to the fact the laptop has two graphics cards, which it switches between for "good power saving" and "graphics performance".

I didn't have much time to debug and work out what exactly was preventing X from starting, there were some bits online about setting the bios to disable one of the cards (the performance one I think), but as it worked fine with Linux before I just decided to stick with that.

My main laptop is a Thinkpad X201 as I actually prefer the older Thinkpads (non chicklet keyboard with nice keys for serious typing, swappable batteries, and a dock that actually works reliably).
It may work better as it is older and only has a single graphics card on it. However I have not tried FreeBSD on that one yet, simply because I would like to first get my desktop working reliably before I tackle the laptop.

 

[Unixnut]

I was also [pleasantly] surprised to see this. Anecdotally, I can't name a single supposedly "Linux-based" professional audio equipment that also doesn't use an extremely old kernel usually in conjunction with OSS and not any kind of ALSA or JACK. (One major hardware synthesizer manufacturer had to backport XHCI drivers to some ancient Linux 2.something version just for their modern control surfaces ... does OSS even run on a modern linux kernel?)

I actually had to have a look at this, because I remember OSS was retired in the 2000's so I expected the Kernel has long since removed support. Apparently OSS4 has been released under the GPL according to the Archilinux wiki, so it should be possible to use it on Linux.

I do know that a lot of Linux audio apps actually still used OSS under the hood, but made use of "OSS wrappers" to wrap it around ALSA/PulseAudio/Jack/etc... which of course did nothing to make the experience simpler and more reliable.

Saying that, having OSS4 on Linux in addition to all of the above does not solve much, just another in a pile of competing systems to deal with. From what I can see FreeBSD just has one, OSS4, and everything uses it. Much simpler!

For me, 2024 is the year of the FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE/Plasma desktop. The final straw was: I had to completely bow out from Club Penguin recently with the news of some terrible github compression library shenanigans I'm sure we all heard about.

Oh yes, although that ssh-backdoor only affected systemd systems. I thankfully run Devuan so was immune. I would not want to be a modern day Linux sysadmin quite frankly, it has turned into quite a headache.

Unfortunately from reading the Devuan mailing lists, it is getting harder and harder to extricate systemd from all the nooks and crannies it lodges itself in, so I am not sure how long systemd-free Linuxes can carry on (another reason to try to move off Linux as much as possible).

I'm also drawn to FreeBSD for OSS capabilities as well, of course. For something to be suitable for desktop use I guess is also contingent on a certain tolerance for troubleshooting, reading docs, and perhaps a level of skill is involved? Personally, I've had much easier setup now just with X11/setting up a DE here on multiple machines than on any Linux distro before which didn't come preconfigured with drivers and DE.

I feel like I've got a lot of "unlearning" to do.. but it's good to be here

I've found that a decent amount of my Linux knowledge applies to FreeBSD as well, although I have worked with Solaris/SunOS in the past so I had some prior Unix exposure. Mainly it involved learning equivalent commands in FreeBSD to Linux. Most of my scripting was in Perl, much of which works just fine without modification.

The only fly in the ointment is my Desktop. As that was Linux for decades I built up a large amount of bash scripts which automated my workflow. Rather than re-write that in Perl or csh, I figured just install bash and use it only for my personal non-root login. That simplified migration greatly, only some edge cases needed to be handled for the different operating systems.

At this point I am about 80% complete with migration. All the major apps I need seem to be in FreeBSD (including some proprietary ones!) and I've found equivalents for the minor apps so far.

It has been relatively seamless to migrate, this being my third day using FreeBSD as a desktop.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

device = 'GK107 [NVS 510]'

Supported here: {link removed}

Use x11/nvidia-driver-470. I use the same, recently described it as faultless (something like that). If it doesn't work as expected (e.g. if you encounter a sleep/wake issue), please post details to a separate topic. Thanks.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… github compression library shenanigans I'm sure we all heard about.

Thanks,

▶ {link removed}

– and I shouldn't think of it as GitHub-oriented.

I'm also drawn to FreeBSD …

We have degrees of complacency and/or disinterest with regard to security issues in the FreeBSD ports collection (not to be confused with base).

 

[Cath O'Deray]

Of my laptops only 2 have suspend and resume support on freebsd.

Can you describe the two? Make and model, if you can.

Plus – critically (for wake-from-sleep purposes) – the graphics card make and model in each one. Concisely, selected from output from

pciconf -lv

Thanks

 

[Cath O'Deray]

The question is can FreeBSD really take care of all these full desktop we already have in ports?

… what I've said before …

Unrelated to any particular desktop environment, the Ports Management Team has:

• a Charter
• policies.

Do we have that many devs, maintainers, desktop users, testers for this? …

If there's a port of a desktop environment, if people have an interest in the port, and if there's no reason for the Ports Management Team to take action:

• the port can stay, and people can work on it.

If unpaid human resources are insufficient for something, then The FreeBSD Foundation might take action.

For one of the open positions:

… the operating system outside of the kernel. Here are a few examples of some projects you might work on:

• …
• Submit fixes for critical third party software to make it run well on FreeBSD. For example, you may write daemons required for desktop environments like Gnome, KDE, or Xfce.
• …

 

[Swithun]

Sadly I have to say No. FreeBSD while capable just isn't ready for mainstream desktop adoption. Asking this question reminds me of the early to mid-2000s when there was this question asked every other week in one form or another in the GNU/Linux community.

For me personally, I'm unable to use FreeBSD on the desktop due to Bluetooth, yes I could replace my Bluetooth devices with wired alternative ones, but if I have to do that, then that tells me for my use cases it just isn't ready yet. It's a sad fact, but one I've come to accept.

 

[kpedersen]

Sadly I have to say No. FreeBSD while capable just isn't ready for mainstream desktop adoption. Asking this question reminds me of the early to mid-2000s when there was this question asked every other week in one form or another in the GNU/Linux community.

Indeed. Ultimately it is the developers who develop FreeBSD that make these decisions based on what they choose to hack on in their free time. Developers rarely strive for a mainstream desktop; it is generally irrelevant to them.

Charters and policies are a pointless timewasting fantasy.

If people want a nice user-friendly desktop environment, then RISCOS and WIMP is there waiting for them.

 

[hruodr]

Sadly I have to say No. FreeBSD while capable just isn't ready for mainstream desktop adoption. Asking this question reminds me of the early to mid-2000s when there was this question asked every other week in one form or another in the GNU/Linux community.

As it is the case here and now.

 

[LibreQuest]

Sadly I have to say No. FreeBSD while capable just isn't ready for mainstream desktop adoption. Asking this question reminds me of the early to mid-2000s when there was this question asked every other week in one form or another in the GNU/Linux community.

For me personally, I'm unable to use FreeBSD on the desktop due to Bluetooth, yes I could replace my Bluetooth devices with wired alternative ones, but if I have to do that, then that tells me for my use cases it just isn't ready yet. It's a sad fact, but one I've come to accept.

I believe FreeBSD is ready for the "mainstream desktop". But the "mainstream desktop" may not be ready for FreeBSD. ?

 

[blackbird9]

Happily using windowmaker on freebsd. But lack of BT is a bit of a shame, can't get my stereo BT speakers to work... I guess it's not a priority!

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… BT … I guess it's not a priority!

A December 2023 RFC included a plan to write a Bluetooth device management utility. I vaguely recall a subsequent change of plan, or someone else taking the reins in this area.

 

[blackbird9]

A December 2023 RFC included a plan to write a Bluetooth device management utility. I vaguely recall a subsequent change of plan, or someone else taking the reins in this area.

I still get good sound qualify from the audio jack via a headphone amp Of course I really need to get round to getting myself a usb dac..
Not having a bluetooth stack isn't a show-stopper.

I remember reading some time last year... perhaps on one of vermadens pages, can't remember... someone was writing a new BT stack for freebsd. I don't know what happened.

 

[hruodr]

I did connect once a bluetooth keyboard with hccontrol (8).

But if it is about bluetooth, then I think better in other thread, not in a recurrent multipurpose thread Desktop Environment.

 

[astyle]

Sadly I have to say No. FreeBSD while capable just isn't ready for mainstream desktop adoption. Asking this question reminds me of the early to mid-2000s when there was this question asked every other week in one form or another in the GNU/Linux community.

For me personally, I'm unable to use FreeBSD on the desktop due to Bluetooth, yes I could replace my Bluetooth devices with wired alternative ones, but if I have to do that, then that tells me for my use cases it just isn't ready yet. It's a sad fact, but one I've come to accept.

Why is it so important that FreeBSD have a 'default' option for a desktop, and be 'mainstream', 'popular'?

From get-go, it was aimed at the DIY market as something that is freely available, free of charge, free of limits to which you can customize it. Yeah, customizing it is a lot of work, and a lot of know-how. We have a screenshots thread (Thread freebsd-screen-shots.8877/page-90) as a showcase for what's possible with FreeBSD. I have a personal preference for KDE, which is full-featured. I like having the option to install it. But it would be no skin off my back if it's not a default - as long as it's in ports, and compiles and runs, that's enough for me.

Yeah, FreeBSD does have some downsides that the users are living with (reliable stacks for wifi and bluetooth). Other operating systems have different downsides that FreeBSD doesn't have.

 

[gnath]

If people want a nice user-friendly desktop environment, then RISCOS and WIMP is there waiting for them.

The argument now came to the userbase of FBSD and the available resources ( paid and unpaid ). Increase of userbase means moving towards full blown WIMP which is already there. Now the available resources have to make choices how far they need to go for present users and their real need.

 

[Unixnut]

Why is it so important that FreeBSD have a 'default' option for a desktop, and be 'mainstream', 'popular'?

Agreed, in many ways Linux's push for mainstream popularity is what resulted in its general degradation as an OS over the last decade or so. I see little benefit in FreeBSD following the same popularity contest.

There are BSD's out there that aim to be "Desktop friendly" by default, some of them like GhostBSD are based on FreeBSD itself.

From get-go, it was aimed at the DIY market as something that is freely available, free of charge, free of limits to which you can customize it. Yeah, customizing it is a lot of work, and a lot of know-how. We have a screenshots thread (Thread freebsd-screen-shots.8877/page-90) as a showcase for what's possible with FreeBSD. I have a personal preference for KDE, which is full-featured. I like having the option to install it. But it would be no skin off my back if it's not a default - as long as it's in ports, and compiles and runs, that's enough for me.

From my side of things, FreeBSD makes an excellent UNIX workstation OS already. If I wanted something "out of the box" there are options already as mentioned, but its flexibility allowed me to make a desktop OS that suits me perfectly (in the case of GUI's, Windowmaker is my drug of choice).

Yeah, FreeBSD does have some downsides that the users are living with (reliable stacks for wifi and bluetooth). Other operating systems have different downsides that FreeBSD doesn't have.

I can't comment on BT as I never used it on anything except smartphones (and I only use it there because phones don't provide proper wired ports anymore) so I don't miss it on PC's at all. However what is the problem with wifi on FreeBSD? I've not come across any reliability issues so far with wifi myself.