2024: The year of desktop FreeBSD?

[kpedersen]

There's various methods, but one of them is a concept of a locally-hosted KMS server that's support can't necessarily be quickly discontinued because of businesses relying on it legitimately.

The enterprise/business KMS servers require a connection to Microsoft's DRM server. There is still zero resilience here.

Unless you are referring to a KMS emulator and pirating Windows of course.

 

[tingo]

Please, keep on topic.

 

[Zagzigger]

If this post is to air a few thoughts about using FreeBSD as a desktop, then here are my thoughts:
The first booted version has to be usable from the start, with network connectivity, printing, and basic applications such as text and sound etc.
That sounds simple, but isn't - but it's very, very important.
I've been using FreeBSD for years, but during the upgrade from 13.? to 14ish the configuration files went bad enough for some to be unusable.
Bought a new system and started again.
Wow, what a surprise. Here are a couple of things that will really turn new users off:
Configuring KDE to start is obscure to say the least - it contains little logic or explanation - just "do this" which wasn't straightforward.
Printing: still haven't got it working, so I have to look forward to another explanation free typing exercise altering config files I've never seen before.
At the moment I can only drive one screen, I am still grappling with how to configure the other - must be more config files to populate with little understanding.
And to those who think I should understand - I disagree. Of all the stuff we use day to day, we don't expect to understand how to configure them - we expect to understand how to use them.
In desperation, I downloaded GhostBSD and that had most stuff covered to make it a usable desktop; however I think its user-interface is poor although it works.
At least it tried removing the config-heavy stuff.
Thanks for reading.

 

[fmc000]

Zagzigger

AFAIK GhostBSD uses XFCE as its desktop environment. It's the DE I use on FreeBSD 14.1p5 and everything you're saying in your post works out-of-the-box (TM) for me, including sound, dual monitor configuration and even wireless printing. Also suspend/resume is perfect 100% of the time.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

Configuring KDE to start is obscure

Install, then two commands.

 

[Jrfontes]

Yeah, I went there with the title, but don't worry, the reference is both deliberate and self-aware.

I'm actually about to write an article about this very subject to a Finnish computer culture magazine, from the viewpoint of a newbie-ish, enthusiast, non-sysadmin, desktop user. When I got my new used laptop, I wanted too test it out as a lark, thinking that my double-boot to Linux would be my daily driver and FreeBSD would be a testing playground.

However, the opposite happened. Linux has faded into the tail end of my bootloader and I daily drive FreeBSD 14 with i3wm for all my general computing needs. I've found the experience extremely smooth and the performance snappy. And FreeBSD uses way fewer resources as well. I am naturally lucky in that all the requisite drivers came with the kernel so everything on the laptop worked out of the box.

Despite this, I've noticed that a lot of folks don't bother with FreeBSD as a general desktop OS. I would be very interested in hearing of your reasons why people do or don't daily drive FreeBSD. This question is both out of general curiosity and as background for the article. Are you double booting with something else, for example?

Full disclosure, I still do run Linux on my desktop since I do a bit of gaming and I do media production as my line of work, so the added hardware support comes in clutch.

I installed FreeBSD on my old laptop few months ago ir order to know this system. My desktop is still running Linux.
So I found myself using the laptop more than the desktop. Why? I think it is more chalenger than Linux. The same happned to me in the past when I changed from Windows 3.1 to OS/2, from OS/2 to Linux...
But I'm not completely confortable with FreeBSD. I didn't suceed running a Linux web browser on linuxlator (Netflix, Spotify, Prime Vídeo etc) and Blender is still a problem. But I still have hope to get this working in near future. So, who knows?...

 

[Zagzigger]

Install, then two commands.

View attachment 20730

Ah, but you left out the creation of ~/.xinitrc with some magic voodoo code buried in the documentation somewhere.
When you find it, you then have to figure out who owns the file - is it root or is it a user? (it's root).
That's not the way to encourage people to use your software - it is the complete opposite.

 

[eseipi]

When you find it, you then have to figure out who owns the file - is it root or is it a user? (it's root).

I believe there's something wrong here, but I've never used KDE.

 

[astyle]

Ah, but you left out the creation of ~/.xinitrc

no need for that. If you have SDDM installed and enabled, the Xorg session is taken care of.

When you find it, you then have to figure out who owns the file - is it root or is it a user? (it's root).

incorrect. regular user owns the ~/.xinitrc, and I don't even have it - and I'm running 13.2-RELEASE, which is EOL by now. I do have SDDM installed, and that takes care of everything. Getting stuff up and running is simply a matter of reading the manual.

Even a simple consumer grade TP-Link router needs a manual that contains instructions for setting it up before it runs correctly. And it's flabbergasting how many people don't want to read the manual, and just pull the device out of the box, turn it on, and expect it to work just like that. And if the device doesn't give a connection, it gets returned?

it's like returning a whole bicycle because you have no idea how to pump air into tires.

 

[kpedersen]

Ah, but you left out the creation of ~/.xinitrc with some magic voodoo code buried in the documentation somewhere.

To simply create a file, its dead easy and user-friendly
$ touch ~/.xinitrc
The docs: touch(1)

When you find it, you then have to figure out who owns the file - is it root or is it a user? (it's root).

No, if the user made the file; its the user who owns it. FreeBSD is user-friendly like that.

That's not the way to encourage people to use your software - it is the complete opposite.

Have you given Windows a try? It is less user-friendly but it might be more suitable for your level of tech knowledge (and desire to research).

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… you left out the creation of ~/.xinitrc …

No. At least on FreeBSD, it's not required.

Install, then two commands.

The installation pictured above (one of three commands) included sddm, and:

---

Zagzigger also, sorry … I see that some advice given to you in 2022 was wrong.

 

[Zagzigger]

No. At least on FreeBSD, it's not required.



The installation pictured above (one of three commands) included sddm, and:

View attachment 20733

---

Zagzigger also, sorry … I see that some advice given to you in 2022 was wrong.

View attachment 20734

Well didn't work for me. Also see several YouTube videos on the same subject - many mention the same ./xinitrc file.

To simply create a file, its dead easy and user-friendly
$ touch ~/.xinitrc
The docs: touch(1)


No, if the user made the file; its the user who owns it. FreeBSD is user-friendly like that.


Have you given Windows a try? It is less user-friendly but it might be more suitable for your level of tech knowledge (and desire to research).

To simply create a file, its dead easy and user-friendly
$ touch ~/.xinitrc
The docs: touch(1)


No, if the user made the file; its the user who owns it. FreeBSD is user-friendly like that.


Have you given Windows a try? It is less user-friendly but it might be more suitable for your level of tech knowledge (and desire to research).

That remark is unhelpful and arrogant.
What we are talking about here is system usability.
Please save your time and ignore my postings in future.
Thanks.

EXTRA EDIT: Post from SirDice
"When you run startx it's ~/.xinitrc that defines what DE or WM gets started. If you don't have that file, or not configured properly, the default TWM window manager is started"
Go argue with him if you like.

 

[kpedersen]

That remark is unhelpful and arrogant.
What we are talking about here is system usability.
Please save your time and ignore my postings in future.

"System usability" for who? You are not qualified to dictate what system usability entails. Do understand that your comments such as the following:

And to those who think I should understand - I disagree.

makes you sound like an entitled pillock^Wconsumer who is almost certainly intentionally using the wrong tool for the job and is verging on being a support vampire, fatiguing a community with already few resources compared to Microsoft's Windows support team.

I hope many people save their time and ignore your postings in future.

Go argue with him if you like.

Why? What he said is completely correct. I am assuming you simply don't want to understand it or you don't want to write a simple one line command into a file to launch your program of choice? Demonstrating a complete lack of effort and a complete inability to learn. Entitled.

 

[Zagzigger]

Nobody needs an in-depth understanding of technical issues for use; what about cars, TVs, networks, wireless, Ethernet, phoneOS etc?
It may intellectually challenge some to play with configuration files etc. - but that is only understanding of configuration files.
To understand at an overall level, the philosophy of the OS, its strengths, weaknesses etc. is a big subject and very few would claim to be experts.
I even read somewhere recently that some well respected guru found many bugs in the FreeBSD code.
That's just one guru - and I bet he missed some.
My like for FreeBSD is (curiously enough) is that it is fast, reliable and has a very helpful community - although, for me that kinda dried up during the upgrade to 14.0 / 14.1.
I'd also like installation of FreeBSD to be as painless as possible - and that would attract more uses.
With more users, comes more suggestions, more ideas and then overall improvements if managed properly.
Lastly, for me, unfriendly usability and configuration issues should be admitted and improved upon.
That's my hope.

Thats fair. But do understand that your comments such as the following:


makes you sound like an entitled pillock who almost certainly is intentionally using the wrong tool for the job and is verging on being a support vampire, fatiguing a community with few resources.

I hope many people save their time and ignore your postings in future.

 

[kpedersen]

Nobody needs an in-depth understanding of technical issues for use; what about cars, TVs, networks, wireless, Ethernet, phoneOS etc?

Think of a Ford Escort being Windows. Think of a vintage Morgan being FreeBSD. If you just want a car that you don't want to learn or maintain; you don't pick a Morgan.

To understand at an overall level, the philosophy of the OS, its strengths, weaknesses etc. is a big subject and very few would claim to be experts.

Yep. Luckily you don't need to be an expert to write a one line config file.

I even read somewhere recently that some well respected guru found many bugs in the FreeBSD code.
That's just one guru - and I bet he missed some.

Bugs exist. They will always exist. But gurus strive to learn and improve themselves (and the code). It is insulting to the developers / gurus if their users consuming their software that they work hard on don't show the same courtesy and instead suggest it should change to fit them without considering that their change might make it worse for others. Consider that the reliability you mentioned earlier *is* because it is simple.

I'd also like installation of FreeBSD to be as painless as possible - and that would attract more uses.
With more users, comes more suggestions, more ideas and then overall improvements if managed properly.

No. It comes with more hassle to support. For example, some projects even go so far as to not want "users" using their software. They only want to support "developers". OpenBSD is a vocal example of this. FreeBSD is a good compromise, but that doesn't mean you don't still need to learn as a user.

Lastly, for me, unfriendly usability and configuration issues should be admitted and improved upon.

You say they are "unfriendly", I say they are "friendly". Who is correct? Neither of us, we simply have "opinions". The difference is that I am not stating that it needs to change based on my own opinion.

That said, if you are a beginner and as such don't know the boundaries between what you need to learn and what is outright broken, then I do apologise if I came across a little grumpy. However if you are basically stating that FreeBSD is not user-friendly and should be more like Windows or macOS, then you are delusional!

 

[Zagzigger]

Think of a Ford Escort being Windows. Think of a vintage Morgan being FreeBSD. If you just want a car that you don't want to learn or maintain; you don't pick a Morgan.


Yep. Luckily you don't need to be an expert to write a one line config file.


Bugs exist. They will always exist. But gurus strive to learn and improve themselves (and the code). It is insulting to the developers / gurus if their users consuming their software that they work hard on don't show the same courtesy and instead suggest it should change to fit them without considering that their change might make it worse for others. Consider that the reliability you mentioned earlier *is* because it is simple.


No. It comes with more hassle to support. For example, some projects even go so far as to not want "users" using their software. They only want to support "developers". OpenBSD is a vocal example of this. FreeBSD is a good compromise, but that doesn't mean you don't still need to learn as a user.


You say they are "unfriendly", I say they are "friendly". Who is correct? Neither of us, we simply have "opinions". The difference is that I am not stating that it needs to change based on my own opinion.

That said, if you are a beginner and as such don't know the boundaries between what you need to learn and what is outright broken, then I do apologise if I came across a little grumpy. However if you are basically stating that FreeBSD is not user-friendly and should be more like Windows or macOS, then you are delusional!

That's enough; I get the picture. Please don't reply to my stuff in future unless you can help me. Thanks,

 

[kpedersen]

That's enough; I get the picture. Please don't reply to my stuff in future unless you can help me. Thanks,

If you post entitled or dubious statements, you will be called out on it and corrected. If you don't like being corrected, it is out of your control so you are probably better off blocking people.

Good luck!

 

[eseipi]

I'm just sad to read the latest posts in this thread. While I personally don't think FreeBSD should strive for "user friendliness" at all, I do believe that everyone should be respected equally, regardless of their level of knowledge and/or experience.

 

[kpedersen]

While I personally don't think FreeBSD should strive for user friendliness at all

Strangely I do. Luckily FreeBSD is pretty much on point in terms of user-friendliness.
For example, we can run KDE in one line of xinitrc. Try to do that in macOS or Windows and it is much more involved.

I do believe that everyone should be respected equally, regardless of their level of knowledge and/or experience.

Tech level is never an issue on these forums. Entitlement and a refusal to learn is generally less well received.

 

[eseipi]

Strangely I do. Luckily FreeBSD is pretty much on point in terms of user-friendliness.
For example, we can run KDE in one line of xinitrc. Try to do that in macOS or Windows and it is much more involved.

I agree, just added the quotes too late

 

[Cath O'Deray]

That remark is unhelpful and arrogant.

Agreed. I have a few people on my ignore list, the majority are easily forgotten.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

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I'm just sad to read the latest posts in this thread. … everyone should be respected equally, regardless of their level of knowledge and/or experience.

The rules might embody that sentiment, or something like it.

I shan't count the number of people who have taught themselves that rule-breaking might be a norm without consequences.

From before I changed my name and personality at The FreeBSD Forums:

To the people who found it impossible to be nice; to the people who simply loved to bring negativity and thanklessness:

• I hope that you few people are, in recent months, enjoying the consequences.

I hope that you few do, because the consequences create a poorer, narrow-minded space.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… didn't work for me. …

The port of SDDM to FreeBSD should allow a User Session or Plasma (X11) in the absence of ~/.xinitrc. Confirmed a few minutes ago with a new account (for test purposes) on a separate installation of FreeBSD 14.1-RELEASE.

If you run startx – instead of allowing management by SDDM – the experience will differ.

If some context was lost, sorry. When I wrote:

on FreeBSD,

– I did not mean FreeBSD in general. I meant, in the context of:

Configuring KDE

– with SDDM (not startx) as a norm when installing kde5 as pictured above.

HTH

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… Printing: still haven't got it working, …

Working for me, despite the attachment, which I shot yesterday afternoon whilst adding a queue for an HP printer. Clearly, something wrong.

It's the type of bug that I ignore (sorry). I have huge stashes of screenshots and other mementos that relate to bugs, or possible bugs. I refrain from reporting the vast majority of things.

Zagzigger please note, this is not to suggest that you're doing anything wrong (or lacking in knowledge). I can't find a print-related topic from you, if you'd like to begin one and ping me from there, I might be able to help.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… I downloaded GhostBSD and that had most stuff covered to make it a usable desktop; however I think its user-interface is poor although it works. …

A fair comment. The MATE desktop environment is not for everyone.

With a little work, GhostBSD can have:

• SDDM, instead of the GhostBSD-provided display manager
• KDE Plasma.

Pictured here in February 2022, Plasma on GhostBSD:

To the left:

"The Neuroscience of Breaking Out of Negative Thinking …"

– subtle as a brick ​

May I ask for a few pointers on how to install Plasma on GhostBSD?

Sorry for not properly following up on that. If I recall correctly, the pointers are elsewhere … if I find a link, I'll send you a private message.