Phoenix: another new X server, written in Zig

blackbird9

blackbird9

I hope this hasn't already been posted, I did a search on 'Phoenix' but didn't find any related hits. It's a bit out of date.
linuxiac.com

Phoenix Emerges as a Modern X Server Written From Scratch in Zig

Phoenix is a new X server written from scratch in Zig, aiming to modernize X11 without relying on Xorg code.
linuxiac.com linuxiac.com
This one looks like a clean-room rewrite, and not a fork of the existing codebase.

It looks like the efforts to keep X11 current are hotting up. Another option to Xlibre, but of course not written in C. I can't find a freebsd port for it available. Still, it's interesting to see these efforts to keep X alive / modernize it. Also interesting to see a project using Zig to do real work.
 
Looks interesting to see, but I dont trust in nothing coming from linux(based in the article)
in other words
"Wayland moves aways xorg" "linux desktop" "all is obsolete,whe are future"
That aptitudes makes me sick
 
Solo projects described as "Modern $old_stable_tech written from scratch in $new_cool_language" are nothing more than author's exercise in that language.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
If you're not using Xorg, you're using wayland. I don't see much hope for anything else. Especially if it's written in Zig.
Click to expand...

Yes.

The problem is Red Hat and Canonical made Linux people think X11 has no future. This dogma was financially backed by large sums of money and pushed around for years. Resulting in Linux audience at mass rejecting X11 religiously, and then vendors could say - look, our market doesn't want it anyway.

The only way X11 server project can succeed is if it ties itself to non-Linux platform right now, because over there, they do not want it.
 
Zare said:
Yes.

The problem is Red Hat and Canonical made Linux people think X11 has no future. This dogma was financially backed by large sums of money and pushed around for years. Resulting in Linux audience at mass rejecting X11 religiously, and then vendors could say - look, our market doesn't want it anyway.

The only way X11 server project can succeed is if it ties itself to non-Linux platform right now, because over there, they do not want it.
Click to expand...
Besides X11 ,sounds extreme,but that people is the source and power who maybe destroy linux
You say it "religiously"
 
Zare said:
Solo projects described as "Modern $old_stable_tech written from scratch in $new_cool_language" are nothing more than author's exercise in that language.
Click to expand...
A bit harsh. Sure, perhaps the guy(s) is using it to to grow his zig skills, but its still good to see some new work being done related to X11, and something useful may yet come out of it. According to the article they are also attempting to modernise some key aspects of the protocol, particularly in the area of security. I don't see why it would not be possible to port it to FreeBSD at some later stage. There have been other standalone X-server efforts in the past, for example Xephyr. If nothing else it shows there is still interest in, and presumably demand for, X11 technology out there.
 
MG said:
Does wayland enable a graphical screen without Xorg installed?
Click to expand...
Y'know that's a good question. I'm assuming yes, because of RH and its ilk, but they might have some X stuff in there. I know that building labwc on RH requires having XWayland installed. (or for running it anyway).
 
My understanding is that Wayland is a complete replacement for X11. The captive XWayland X-server is provided for backwards compatibility, to permit "legacy" X11 apps to continue to be used, but is not an essential part of the system. You can construct a graphical interface to the machine using Wayland alone.
 
blackbird9 said:
My understanding is that Wayland is a complete replacement for X11. The captive XWayland X-server is provided for backwards compatibility, to permit legacy X11 apps to continue to be used, but is not an essential part of the system. You can construct a graphical interface to the machine using Wayland alone.
Click to expand...
My understanding matches this. Speculation says a long term goal to to completely replace X11 which means all applications are rewritten to use Wayland.
Possible? Sure. Maybe easier in a closed environment like Windows or Mac but OpenSource?
I think number of users may drive things. Rewriting say twm or cde to use Wayland? Again Possible but maybe not probable.
 
blackbird9 said:
My understanding is that Wayland is a complete replacement for X11. The captive XWayland X-server is provided for backwards compatibility, to permit "legacy" X11 apps to continue to be used, but is not an essential part of the system. You can construct a graphical interface to the machine using Wayland alone.
Click to expand...
Then I would like to see a Wayland demo program that does at least 2d graphics from a FreeBSD text-only CLI. How do you show a pixel in a specific color? I would find it very interesting to not need anything related to X.org (while using an open graphics driver that's more than SVGA and VESA)
 
drhowarddrfine said:
You are correct. While applications may not work without Xorg, Wayland's goal is to completely replace it everywhere.
Click to expand...
I don't think Wayland to be a "complete" replacement for X11.
If so, CJK inputs like fcitx{4|5}, scim, ibus, uim, XIM, ... SHALL work perfectly with 100% same comfiguration as in X11 (XFree86, Xorg, XLibre, ...) at least XWayland is isntalled. In this case, XWayland SHALL honor both ~/.xinitrc and ~/.xsession to pick what were configured for X11. But it doesn't at least for me.
With the above, I consider Wayland to be pre-pre- ... -pre Alpha stage to be a complete replacement for X11. Even not reached to pre-Alpha stage.
 
T-Aoki, I've said this in other threads, but in case someone wanting Japanese input finds this. With the labwc window manager, you can put the needed variables, XMODIFIERS, QT_IM_MODULE, and such in a file in $HOME/.config/labwc/environment. The only other Wayland window manager I've used is dwl, and with that, Japanese input is something I can sometimes get to work, but a lot of times it doesn't. When it does work, I've done something like
Code: 
 export XMODIFIERS=@im=fcitx urxvt
I've not gotten it to work in alacritty, firefox, or any QT app. The only terminal I've gotten working with it is urxvt. This is for dwl, in labwc, everything works.
With RedHat Linux, though, if I use their default Gnome and ibus I can get Japanese to work as it will in xorg. However, in RH, when I've managed to install labwc, I can't get Japanese working, whether I use fcitx5 or ibus. And of course, I have to spam my page, so I have a bit more detail at https://srobb.net/jpninpt.html#wayland
 
I am also under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that while X11 is a network protocol and was designed from the bottom up to support network window systems, ie transport of an application's GUI over the network to a remote display server (eg, an X-station), Wayland is more like a single-seat, single-machine architecture, like windows. Is that correct?
 
blackbird9 said:
Yeah, maybe 'complete' isn't accurate. It's a replacement, but not necessarily 'complete'.

If found what looks like a pretty good technical comparison of the two systems here:-
dasroot.net

Wayland vs X11: The Future of Linux Graphics in 2025

Linux graphics: Wayland vs X11. Comprehensive guide to architecture, performance, features, and best use cases.
dasroot.net dasroot.net
Click to expand...
complete vs "drop-in"

In hardware it's "same functionality" vs "pin compatible" Wayland was never designed to be "pin compatible" with X11
 
mer said:
complete vs "drop-in"

In hardware it's "same functionality" vs "pin compatible" Wayland was never designed to be "pin compatible" with X11
Click to expand...
Isn't that just knowing the exact operation of your graphics hardware? I think all that a display server or whatever you call it needs is the elementary information required to display things on a rectangular screen made of pixels, and everything else that it takes care of is barely relevant.
I'm seeing wayland for some years as dependency of things but I have never seen it do anything special... What should it add or replace on a graphical desktop?
 
blackbird9 said:
I am also under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that while X11 is a network protocol and was designed from the bottom up to support network window systems, ie transport of an application's GUI over the network to a remote display server (eg, an X-station), Wayland is more like a single-seat, single-machine architecture, like windows. Is that correct?
Click to expand...
You are right. I'm sure there are some nuances to it, which I don't know, but in essence you are right.
 
MG said:
Isn't that just knowing the exact operation of your graphics hardware? I think all that a display server or whatever you call it needs is the elementary information required to display things on a rectangular screen made of pixels, and everything else that it takes care of is barely relevant.
I'm seeing wayland for some years as dependency of things but I have never seen it do anything special... What should it add or replace on a graphical desktop?
Click to expand...
I think he's just talking about the different ways that the word 'complete' can be used in English. A lot of words in English can have multiple meanings with subtle differences, depending on context and the interpretation of the reader. So in my original sentence, I meant 'complete' in the 'drop-in' sense rather than 'pin compatible', by the analogy with hardware, so Mer's explanation is correct. Even native english speakers can be confused by this stuff.

This is the kind of thing that stops English being used in a lot of standards documents... French is generally recognised as being a more precise language, for example.
 
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