Other "Lightweight Desktop" vs "feature-rich and resource intensive"

Anyone else remember using a CLI on a TI thermal "terminal" over a 300baud dialup and then various ROFF type tools to create professional documents? I can't believe we never did any serious work like that.
 
Well that's an...interesting...comment.

Is it?

What is Ardour/Rosegarden/LMMS alternative for CLI, what is Krita/Inkscape alternative, Openoffice?

It seems like every week I need to remind people at least once of this concept


An Unix Workstation requires a GUI. Because workstation tools are mostly graphical. Very simple and old concept.

Another angle to look at the claim, is the amount of FreeBSD developers that use X11/wayland on their computers. By that claim, these people aren't power users.
 
I do not paint and do audio. But I can tell you my 'alternative' to Openoffice: TeX.
Well, it is not alternative, because Openofficice is far away to compete with TeX.

And no, I do not reject GUI, but the nauseating GUI bloat.
 
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An Unix Workstation requires a GUI. Because workstation tools are mostly graphical. Very simple and old concept.

Another angle to look at the claim, is the amount of FreeBSD developers that use X11/wayland on their computers. By that claim, these people aren't power users.
If the tools one needs are graphical, then one needs a GUI. If tools are not graphical then one does not need a GUI. Lots and lots of serious work was done on VT100s.
Early VaxStations were used mostly to provide "multiple VT100s that I can cut and paste between"

Lets look at email. For the longest time email was text; now it's not. The "it's not" means one needs a graphical application to read a majority of messages: a change in meaning forcing a change in user application.

Power User/CLI and GUI are not and have never been mutually exclusive
 
Lets look at email. For the longest time email was text; now it's not. The "it's not" means one needs a graphical application to read a majority of messages: a change in meaning forcing a change in user application.
I used many years the BSD 'mail', read attachments with 'metamail'. You are right that now one gets
links, attachments with images, so that GUI is inevitable. But I would never use a GUI program for mail,
the idea is an horror. I use apline.

Power User/CLI and GUI are not and have never been mutually exclusive
Indeed, that is why I use X11 (with twm). If an image comes per email, I let alpine call the viewer
I put in the .mailcap file. No need to read email with bloat like the browser, thunderbird & Co.
 
An Unix Workstation requires a GUI. Because workstation tools are mostly graphical.
An Unix Workstation does not require a GUI. If you are using workstation tools that are graphical, yes. If you aren't, no. My programmers, and every place I worked, we didn't need or use graphical tools anywhere for programming. My graphics people did cause graphics is graphical. But you don't need graphics to program anything.
 
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I used many years the BSD 'mail', read attachments with 'metamail'. You are right that now one gets
links, attachments with images, so that GUI is inevitable. But I would never use a GUI program for mail,
the idea is an horror. I use apline.


Indeed, that is why I use X11 (with twm). If an image comes per email, I let alpine call the viewer
I put in the .mailcap file. No need to read email with bloat like the browser, thunderbird & Co.
Alpine/Pine/Mutt and external viewers. The way email should be, although I do use claws-mail.
 
I still use mutt, and only on occasion do I have to use an external viewer to see some html stuff that isn't visible in text. (and most times, those turn out to be spam. The more reputable companies and my doctors use whatever they use and I can view it in mutt).
 
I think there are 2 factors that impact this debate; how well an out of the box DE works for you and how much setup time do you want to invest? When I try gnome, I'm impressed with how well the applications are integrated out of the box. The downside is the resources it takes. If you're willing to put the time into a lightweight configuration, you can make a Window Manager close to a Desktop Environment. Use xdg to set default applications and choose support applications wisely. For instance, Evolution does emails and contact management - so does mutt and abook. When you want to email a link in gnome, evolution is preconfigured. I have a mutt_mallto script that runs in Firefox-esr.

I knew a retired man who distro-hopped as well as any teenager, he felt that a desktop should be setup to match his intuition. He never settled on one.

My path was to configure openbox, tint2, jgmenu, feh, xcompmgr, mutt, abook.... such that I can pull the ~/.config file and my scripts and stick them in a new install. I continue to tweak but my overall workflow has not changed in years.
 
If you claim serious application work can be performed from CLI you had your head in the sand for 45 years.
Prior to buying a used Sun 3/50 (my first graphics workstation with a whopping 4Megabytes of RAM) in 1989, I did plenty of UNIX work: inside the kernel, drivers, file system, utilities, networking, applications etc. and got paid handsomely. Even today I mostly work in tty windows.

If you can’t do serious programming work from CLI, you have sand in your head:-)
 
Anyone else remember using a CLI on a TI thermal "terminal" over a 300baud dialup and then various ROFF type tools to create professional documents? I can't believe we never did any serious work like that.
W. Richard Stevens wrote all his books in exactly this way
IMG_20260221_124047_036.jpg
 
I started working, after high school, in firmware (industry automation) on a similar Mostek Macro 80 (not a real one, handmade) with 2 8" floppies an 5" monochrome (green) CRT. In that company there was two bosses, the secretary and I, one boss was an ex Olivetti engineering that developed all the electronic cards (half-euro size cards with Z80), it was 1986. The cards was inserted in a rack, firmware was written in assembly, the ROM used was 4kB, the RAM 8kB (to store end user programs), For debugging we used a handmade console with an interface card to insert in the rack, it was possible to debug 2kB at a time copying the CPU card frmware into console in machine language, debugging was entirely in machine language (hex numbers). It had a 4 + 2 digit display (4 for the address, 2 for the code), 2 leds, one when the code was on ASM instruction fetch and the other for a single breakpoint, the keyboard was like the numeric pad plus hex letters. Then we bought a PC (286) portable (portable not laptop, but less big than the Macro 80, macro 80 was a cube of about 80cm). Portable because I have to travel where the machine was done, to debug the firmware on board, and when the machine was done I travel to the end customer of the machine. The portable was a 286 with 2 4.25" floppies, a 5" monochrome (amber) CRT. Then (at the end of '80) we bought 2 desktop PCs (386/286 I do not remember), one for develop electronic cards, we stop using maillard and used Ultiboard (paid) and OrCAD (stolen somewere), but most Ultiboard. In the while I learned C and C++ by myself. with the Z80 asm compiler it was possible to compile C firmware but never used it, because (the opinion of the bosses) it ate a lot of ROM.


Now I can work in any environment, I do not care a lot, expecially with desktop, I can work on CLI, but I no longer want to remember a lot of things (commands, parameters, ...) if I found something that make me fill good I use it and change only if I find something better (better for me, that help me in some way). On first impact I do not care if there are one, two or three panels, they are at to or at bottom, if icons are flat or 3D, if the time is on the left or the right of the panel. I care they are curstomizable and in easy way, without reading tons of document to make a marginal simple thing that has nothing to do with what I want to use the desktop for.


When I watch DE screenshots I can imagine the user habit, most of the time a short panel at the bottom with big icons is typical of a Mac/Linux user (more Mac), a full size bottom panel with menu in the left and icons, clock at the right is more typical for a Windows user. Is it good? Is it bad? It's this way, the most important thing is that you fill good and it's easy to configure.
 
Before Covid, when I worked in an office, a Windows/Linux using co-worker used to say that even if he had access to my computer, he wouldn't know what to do. I ran FreeBSD with dwm. I usually, sorta out of habit, had a desktop image. but with dwm, it is all keystrokes. He couldn't right click and get a menu. It's why, in case I drop dead suddenly, I have a sort of death envelope, explaining to my wife, who is not a technical person, how to either open thunar, or switch to xfce4--I even have a little script she can run to do it.

BTW, I'm not insulting my co-worker, who had a whole lot of knowledge that I lacked. It's just that he'd not run into a window manager like dwm.
When I watch DE screenshots I can imagine the user habit, most of the time a short panel at the bottom with big icons is typical of a Mac/Linux user (more Mac), a full size bottom panel with menu in the left and icons, clock at the right is more typical for a Windows user. Is it good? Is it bad? It's this way, the most important thing is that you fill good and it's easy to configure.
EXACTLY!
 
Andrey Lanin Thanks for that. Just looked at my bookshelf and see proof that it was useful work :)
I could be remembering incorrectly, but didn't K&R originally sell Bell Labs on "unix" as a typesetting system? Basically "Hey boss can we get the budget for this PDP-7 as a typesetting system to help with filing patents? No we're not going to use it for anything else, wink wink"
 
Prior to buying a used Sun 3/50 (my first graphics workstation with a whopping 4Megabytes of RAM) in 1989, I did plenty of UNIX work: inside the kernel, drivers, file system, utilities, networking, applications etc. and got paid handsomely. Even today I mostly work in tty windows.

If you can’t do serious programming work from CLI, you have sand in your head:-)

I was never talking about development or systems work. I was talking about application software usage.

I do not paint and do audio.

That is an awesome argument.
What you need those shoes for? You don't need shoes because I never wear them.
 
An Unix Workstation does not require a GUI. If you are using workstation tools that are graphical, yes. If you aren't, no. My programmers, and every place I worked, we didn't need or use graphical tools anywhere for programming. My graphics people did cause graphics is graphical. But you don't need graphics to program anything.

No, I believe you're all using Unix Workstation terminology wrong. It is not an Unix box.
Workstation per wiki :

workstation is a special computer designed for technical or scientific applications.

When they say technical or scientific, they do not mean computer science only, but other things computer can aid in - hence the workstation name.

Workstations are optimized for the visualization and manipulation of different types of complex data such as 3D mechanical design, engineering simulations like computational fluid dynamics, animation, video editing, image editing, medical imaging, image rendering, computational science, generating mathematical plots, and software development.

Why should you buy an exteremely expensive computer whose cost is largely in graphics parts if you're not going to use them?
In early mid 90s high res colour screens and accelerator graphics cards costed a fortune, the way you all write, you used to buy those computers then work in the tty?
 
In early mid 90s high res colour screens and accelerator graphics cards costed a fortune, the way you all write, you used to buy those computers then work in the tty?
No because they didn't exist. Even at Silicon Graphics, where I worked then on graphical software in C on a Unix system, it was text all the way through until the output. Sure we had a window to display the final result but that was only the final result of the work in text. But many of the machines we sold were not graphics machines.

When I worked at Bausch & Lomb on the new Sun workstations it was all text. We didn't do graphics. Pixar offered me a job but it would be writing code on a text only machine. I personally never owned a home computer with graphics capability till 1998 when I bought a Gateway computer which I still have in my basement.

A Unix workstation is called a Unix workstation because it runs Unix, not due to any graphics capability.
 
That is an awesome argument.
Hence, you wanted me to give alternatives of painting and audio software although I do not paint and do audio with the computer?

May I conclude that you are that kind of people that give advice about things he does not know.
 
No because they didn't exist. Even at Silicon Graphics, where I worked then on graphical software in C on a Unix system, it was text all the way through until the output. Sure we had a window to display the final result but that was only the final result of the work in text. But many of the machines we sold were not graphics machines.

When I worked at Bausch & Lomb on the new Sun workstations it was all text. We didn't do graphics. Pixar offered me a job but it would be writing code on a text only machine. I personally never owned a home computer with graphics capability till 1998 when I bought a Gateway computer which I still have in my basement.

A Unix workstation is called a Unix workstation because it runs Unix, not due to any graphics capability.
You need graphics if you want to have “What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get” (WYSIWYG) technology. As far as I know, this was an invention by Microsoft in the 1990s to sell their Wordprocessing software to non-technical users. From there, it spread to becoming a new kind of paradigm, even in professional areas.

True, I would not want to do, e.g., extensive image editing on the command line, but this WYSIWYG nonsense has become a real bane to efficiency and precision, in my opinion. Especially in word processing.
 
WYSIWYG seems to date back to Xerox's ALTO.
When printing on early Macintosh, the printout was the same size as the screen.
This allowed me to place the paper I wanted to print on against the screen and check how it would print.
 
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We has WYSIWYG prior to graphics terminals as well (meant for printers that were also simpler and just printed monocolor text)! That's what early wordprocessors such as Word Perfect, WordStar, MultiMate, Wang Word processor, early Microsoft Word etc. did. The first Unix company I worked for built a Wang compatible (more or less) word processor on Unix and had moderate success for a while. [Actually our CTO & later a very good friend wanted to built a bitmap display but lost to the slicker marketing folks convinced our ex-Itel CEO that we would sell many more computers if we copied Wang than built an engineering work station with a bitmap display. So it goes!]
 
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