200 MB RAM FreeBSD Desktop

This is kind of sad. 200MB to run a bunch of xterms and brag about it when not so long ago
windows xp could run office in 128MB
windows 95 could run office with 16MB
sgi O2 shipped with 32MB
you could run kde with 32MB
a basic twm install worked with what 8 MB ?
sega dreamcast had kick ass games with 16MB

in early 90 you could ran TeX for dos + win30 + pagemaker in one fscking mb of ram and 20 mb hdd
now you need 4GB to ran notepad and mspaint
so now we need two orders of magnitude more of computing power to achieve the same productivity as 30 years ago
 
This reminds me that the other day I saw on YouTube a clip from 1995 where Jay Leno made fun of McDonald's for letting customers pay with credit cards. I thought, "how life has changed in a few years," and immediately realized that 31 years have passed since 1995, which are not "a few" anymore.
 
This is kind of sad. 200MB to run a bunch of xterms and brag about it when not so long ago
windows xp could run office in 128MB
windows 95 could run office with 16MB
sgi O2 shipped with 32MB
you could run kde with 32MB
a basic twm install worked with what 8 MB ?
sega dreamcast had kick ass games with 16MB

in early 90 you could ran TeX for dos + win30 + pagemaker in one fscking mb of ram and 20 mb hdd
now you need 4GB to ran notepad and mspaint
so now we need two orders of magnitude more of computing power to achieve the same productivity as 30 years ago
Apart from more serious and constrained programming of bygone eras, one of the reasons such low memory usage is not really feasible today is the screen resolutions being used, at the 800x600x24bit a triple buffered output would take 4mb, at the same depth a 2k triple buffer alone takes ~18mb. Even if we forgo triple buffers, that's ~6mb just to paint the screen. Hardware also got extra complicated and requires more and more stuff just to work.

But i do agree that today's programmers are too liberal with resource usage.

Edited: messed up bits and bytes :p
 
I noticed they don't appear to have a web browser in that setup... try running a browser in that footprint; well, apart from 'links', maybe 🤨
Just checked. I have a binary firefox 126 in a 192MB gzip on a custom FreeBSD 14.1 system. It needs memory to contain the extracted libs and executables like actual storage.
Quite sure it can be smaller. What takes that webcode analysis side app that nobody uses for as far as I can imagine? I always accidentally open it with an unknown keyboard or mouse action.
I'm very interested in slimming down different browsers to run in a disposable RAM block. Anyone with serious tricks, please pm me.
 
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This is kind of sad. 200MB to run a bunch of xterms and brag about it when not so long ago
windows xp could run office in 128MB
windows 95 could run office with 16MB
Vista at 512MB minimum I feel was a justifiable RAM jump from XP with DWM/Aero and Widgets (extras, but I guess you'd need the RAM for those extras), and I had the luxury of experiencing that at the beginning on a launch laptop :p 7-11 I'm not sure introduce anything new to require more than 1GB min (not sure what MS's recommendations are).

openSUSE Tumbleweed, Ubuntu, and Fedora server editions all wouldn't install to a 512MB VPS (oS and Fedora's installers didn't boot; Ubuntu's failed mid-install); it was a free-tier VPS and those distros installed with 1GB. Debian installed fine at 512MB (this was before I discovered FreeBSD :p) I'm not sure what typical VPSs offer, but considering cloud's the hype and Linux is efficient (and all 3 being enterprise companies) that was surprising.
 
This is kind of sad. 200MB to run a bunch of xterms and brag about it when not so long ago
windows xp could run office in 128MB
windows 95 could run office with 16MB
sgi O2 shipped with 32MB
you could run kde with 32MB
a basic twm install worked with what 8 MB ?
sega dreamcast had kick ass games with 16MB
... and AMIGA could run its Workbench desktop on a 7 MHz CPU with 0.5 MB of RAM.

amiga-best-screenshot.png
 
A thoroughly done job. Thank you. The article contains many good tips. Yes, that's right... it's entirely possible to create a dream desktop.
If I noticed correctly, you have UFS2, and, as blackbird9 wrote, if you add a browser to this configuration, then...
Both the browser and ZFS will consume a lot of memory.
 
Classic MacOS (the old Macintosh) could run word in 128KB.
But that was old Word, as "not Text". My first Unix on my own HW had 8MB memory and ran fvwm2, good memories.
 
This is kind of sad. 200MB to run a bunch of xterms and brag about it when not so long ago
windows xp could run office in 128MB
windows 95 could run office with 16MB
sgi O2 shipped with 32MB
you could run kde with 32MB
a basic twm install worked with what 8 MB ?
sega dreamcast had kick ass games with 16MB

in early 90 you could ran TeX for dos + win30 + pagemaker in one fscking mb of ram and 20 mb hdd
now you need 4GB to ran notepad and mspaint
so now we need two orders of magnitude more of computing power to achieve the same productivity as 30 years ago
I remember my Amiga running a pre-emptive GUI based OS in 512K memory. I originally had an Amiga 500, and bought a sidecar hard drive adaptor and a 20Mb drive for it. When I plugged it in, after the drivers loaded there was insufficient memory to run my C compiler. After fitting an extra 512k of memory into the sidecar, everything worked fine. I developed a program for work to calculate gas blows and mineral additions for Stainless Steel production, cross compiling on my Amiga, and the IBM PC clone in my office! 1989, or thereabouts...
 
well, you need to boot the os first. i've not meant the apps themselves require 4GB but to boot windows 11 you need it
It's like flying a Boeing from Bogota to Milan to eat pizza.
On the other hand, we can create a minimalist DE/WM, but burden it with a browser, ZFS, and a messenger, and all efforts will quickly fade away...
 
It's like flying a Boeing from Bogota to Milan to eat pizza.
On the other hand, we can create a minimalist DE/WM, but burden it with a browser, ZFS, and a messenger, and all efforts will quickly fade away...
Well, if you just need to run one thing (say notepad.exe), you don't need a DE or a WM, you can just boot to Notepad and that's it. The point of having a DE/WM is to be able to do multiple stuff. Like browsing the web (in 2026) or talking with people using a messenger app.
The web we knew from the late 90's (or even the start of the 2000's) is gone.

And like vermaden pointed out in his blog, if you compile the kernel just to your hardware you can reduce the memory usage (which is what everyone seems to be remembering, OSes tailored to mostly the same hardware).
 
... and AMIGA could run its Workbench desktop on a 7 MHz CPU with 0.5 MB of RAM.

View attachment 24987

Amiga probably uses some hardware assistance to draw that UI. I am a PC guy so don't know much about Amiga internals, but in PC VGA one can set up modes that use less memory than minimal VGA amount (256kB), not only used for paging but for hardware assisted VRAM to VRAM transfer. The programmer can set up an offscreen buffer that way, use VRAM for 'assets' and draw them much faster (4x) than if CPU/RAM were used.

Amiga also, as far as I know, does graphics via DMA. I don't know whether it solely does that, but presuming Workbench uses that to redraw itself, it leaves the CPU alone so 7 MHz isn't really a factor. And there could be a blitter chip involvement too, for window composition?

I guess similar kind of GUI fidelity (but not looks!) might be achievable with 8 MHz 286 and some late ISA card with "Windows acceleration features" like ATi Mach64 in 1 MB RAM, where the 1 MB value would come from 286 protected mode requirement, and not minimal memory footprint.

The arrival of Amiga and Atari matched with the fall of DRAM prices which were limiting factor to computing evolution back then. Fast and affordable machines could not be made with late 70s/early 80s DRAM prices. Sometimes old PC software has very low memory requirements but it comes with a great speed tradeoff, like some adventure games that used VRAM as graphics buffer. They could run on 256kB PC, but the VRAM read operations are very slow.

It is a bit of a different beast to compare modern UIs against which are typically tripple buffered - window composition buffer, desktop comp. buffer, framebuffer.

Btw, I measured FreeBSD 5.5 on an MMX machine with XFree86/nVidia/WindowMaker. sendmail and that kind of stuff turned off, but networked. 24 MB idle desktop usage @ 640x480.
 
On the other hand, we can create a minimalist DE/WM, but burden it with a browser, ZFS, and a messenger, and all efforts will quickly fade away...

There are dozens of minimalist DE/WM in the ports.
There is one fat environment for those of us that can spare the RAM, KDE Plasma, that has half decent integration with FreeBSD.

Maybe, reading the stuff on Vermaden's link, the way for FreeBSD is to invent a freedesktop standards alternative, at least fork the current one, get rid of everything that isn't basics like MIMEs, desktop entry syntax/hierarchy, and move up from there.
 
I remember using a PS/2 model 80 to run OS/2. It had a full graphical desktop, all kinds of software ran on it, editors, compilers, word processor, graphics, tcp/ip, etc.. It ran on a 386 cpu and had 8 MB RAM. My memory told me it had a 486... but wikipedia says a 386, so I think my memory is wrong. Of course that was before web browsers were a thing. The machine itself was built like a tank and very expensive, like all their kit. OS/2 had real multi-threading and pre-emptive multi-tasking, but unfortunately for ibm MS already owned the PC market and ibm had already lost control and was really unable to break in, especially given their daft policy to begin with of trying to sell you a very expensive, non-standard MCA bus PC to run it on; I think it took them a year to two before they decided to allow OS/2 to run on non-MCA PC's.. The OS/2 software was good though, windows didn't really catch up technically until they brought NT out, or maybe later than that.

1768840760879.png


Software seems to expand to fill the available hardware capacity... there has to be a "moores law" type rule for that.
 
1768840550581.png

Standard install of 15.0, standard XOrg, ... Usability is "OK" with 200MB in the virtual box setup. Going back to some GB now as this is supposed a build machine later on (8 cores assigned).
 
Another machine I used to work on was a 43P running AIX... can't remember which version. That box had 256 MB RAM, and at the time was a top-notch desktop development machine.
That was of course a full unix with X11 desktop and motif/CDE. All in 256 MB RAM.

CDE was the standard AIX desktop so seeing the CDE screenshots reminds me of it. That DID run a web browser... originally mosaic but quickly switched to netscape navigator when that came out, I think that was around the early to mid 90s. I think the monitor was a P70 which from memory was 1024x768 resolution, although I think I got hold of a huge 20" CRT after a year or so... those were the monitors that were so big you had to pull the desk away from the wall so it could stick out the back and have enough space in front of the screen, and you needed two people to lift the thing 😂
 
Just faced the fact that pkg will eat memory like popcorn, even on the console it is paging now :)
258MB and counting. Trying it in CDE got xosview away.
 
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