Can someone guide me for guidelines for inclusion or diversity.

drhowarddrfine said:
Now you're wanting to regulate thoughts which never work.
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No at all. People are obviously free to think whatever they want as they have always done.
I'm merely suggesting that members of the community, newcomers or otherwise, are not met with unfriendliness or unkind words etc. based on some irrelevant-to-contributing characteristic.
Is that a controversial opinion?
 
God damn, what are you on guys ?
Writing on/about DEI on foss/programming spaces is like shooting yourself and blaming others.
Many people are tolerant towards all sides including DEI but when people start to invade spaces and destroy tolerances and pushing ME ME all about ME - world starts to burn.
Classic divide and conquer.
 
Alain De Vos said:
Even if i was born in India. Strange country i can contribute for a possitive environment. Now my question is can you guide me to not te rules but Mr Mcusick is homosexual and I wish his best in life. What are the freebsd comminuty saying about this. I like would some links.It's trying to understand.
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I remember my students dys and when we have a party there was one older man whose everytime said:
"It's hard to be a human being."
 
I think there's kind of a difference between tolerating somebody's vice (on account that they are quite competent technically) and realizing that you hired a DEI candidate who turns out to be utterly incompetent and frankly does more harm than good to the project.

If one first has the technical competence and can show that, then yeah, DEI barely begins to matter at that point. But getting those things out of order results in nonsensical mud-slinging that wastes everybody's time.

I'd compare it to swimming in the Amazon... If you have the skill to bite back, you survive, and even thrive in there. There's kind of a reason that electric eels call that river home... even if some electric eels are shorter than others of the same kind.
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I guess....

They get a charge out of it.

(I'll see myself out, thanks).

I don't know if it's more a European thing, but I've never seen an incompetent hired because they were black, female, gay, or whatever. I HAVE seen straight white men and women use the term when it seems they really want to say n****r, f****t, etc. But in my experience, usually, a so called DEI has to be better than the white candidate. That's just my experience, and I've never worked at a place that made great claims to be searching for DEI candidates, they'd just hire someone good for the job.

Now, these days in the US, where they're looking to denigrate various accomplishments by Blacks or gays, e.g., change the name of ship because it's named after a gay man, I think that those who complain about DEI should just move here. You'll love it,
and, if you're already here and feel you have a co-worker who is DEI, just report it.
 
I'm sure.
In that case, it's not even DEI. Japan is rather notorious for frequently limiting what positions non-Japanese, or women, can fill.

And if they were a member of DEI, I can certainly understand that influencing your thinking. (That sounds condescending as I reread it, it's not meant to be). But I keep thinking of where I am, the US, and the non-DEI people that have become infamous for their incompetence, such as the military man who accidentally included a reporter in a supposedly secret group chat about military action. I think we can all think of incredibly stupid things that were done by DEI people and non DEI people. As I'm a straight white male, I can think of lots of things that I've done. My wife is a straight Asian female, and I can think of plenty of very foolish things she's done. We remind each other of these things all the time. :) I guess she would be DEI. I can also point, proudly, to her accomplishments. (Though she married me, so I guess that might cast doubt on her intelligence).


The point of my babbling here is that people are people. If someone says, Well, I'm going to hire a black gay woman for DEI purposes, whether she's competent or not, they deserve what they get. As does a person who says, Well, I'm only hiring a straight white man, no blacks or women or gays allowed. Somehow, it all reminds me of an It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia scene where Mac is contradicting what he's said previously and says something like, I can make whatever argument I want to support my point of view at that moment. I'm an American.
 
scottro said:
I think we can all think of incredibly stupid things that were done by DEI people and non DEI people
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Very true... I do see DEI not being really used as intended, anyway. Flashy words, but toothless laws. I'm gonna leave it at that...
 
Charlie_, I have been in Japan and while most people were wonderful, I experienced some anti foreigner attitude. My wife is Japanese and I have heard from her, and many of my inlaws, about the sometimes difficulties that people face there for being female.
However, with my own country being just as bad or worse, you are right. I was trying to make the point that in the example cited, it didn't seem as if someone was hired for being DEI, but regardless, I shouldn't have insulted your country.
申訳ございません。ゆるしてください。
 
Some of scottro comments reminded me of when I hired people. More than once I had some long time employees who would say whether an interviewee was "one of us". That is, do they fit in with our personalities and values. "We're family," some said to me when it was brought up about why most of our people stayed so long and I can see how being forced to hire people based on some quota could disrupt that.

Then, again, I never had more than 30 employees. As we grew to that size I had one come to me complaining that I had grown colder to them. I just didn't have the time anymore. **sniff** But that's a different story.
 
Japan. Been there. Lived there. Did meet really bright people there, outnumbered by conservative nationalists. Learned a lot about racism there. A gaikokujin experiences it fast, a hakujin gets it more in a passive aggressive, formal polite manner, but still with subtle contempt. If you are not familiar with the language you are lost, but you won’t get disturbed by floridly vilification or open verbal insults against you, which makes it a great country for short(!) trips: You’ll meet a lot of mellow looking faces masking their underneath resentment. It’s that mask that is meant when loosing the face.

scottro I do think one should not apologize for having talked about experienced xenophobia and misogyny.

One should not get intimidated by attacks like „you have insulted my country“. It’s the known dominating „us vs. them“ game, that is about exclusion, not inclusion.
 
I really don't get it what this thread really is about.

In the good old times of the Usenet there was the netiquette. A framework based on common sense and decent human behaviour how to act.

And this approach worked very well for many decades and all types of communication platforms as well software projects: people should use common sense and get along. If not, well there's the door and goodbye.

Common sense is to accept contributions by all different types of people based on trust and technical merit, not their sexual identity or religious belief. This should play no rule. Nobody should be ruled out because of that, or promoted based on that alone against somebody who has deeper knowlege.

Code of Conducts on paper started as modernised version of that, but became much larger quite soon. Most projects have no probem with CoCs but the issue is if your project is big enough this will give bad meaning people leverage to eject people from the project they disllke.

People could start arguing e.g. "you are not taking my patch because you dislike my $BLAH, which is against the CoC." - and then have fun.

So it really depends on how the CoC is written, implemented and governed in case you decide you want one.

CoCs became a thing about 11 years ago, when suddenly many people refused to go to conferences without CoC or work with projects without one. The question remains why. It must be a generational issue. They started back then to poison the wells.

One DEI law in Germany when hiring for civil servants is "handicapped people at same level of competence are preferred over non-handicapped ones." That's a regulation I can live with.
 
I never liked the idea of 'family' in the workplace. When the boss says 'We're all a big family', that really creeps me out. I'm in the workplace to work, get paid for my labor, and that's it. Anything beyond that - it's just an excuse for the boss to really cross personal boundaries with the expectation that s/he can get away with it. Family is one thing. Workplace is separate.

Yeah, it's understandable that you'd want to hire someone who does the job and doesn't cause trouble/extra work. Yeah, if you wanna profit from my expertise, that's fine, my brains and muscle power are for sale.

Yeah, it's understandable that I'm expected to work my ass off for the benefit of the shop/company. Yeah, that's what my expertise is for.

Yeah, the idea of being professional and not being a total jerk - that's understandable.

Expectations of competence - that's the most natural thing.

Expectations of being able to cooperate - yep. If there's a process for that - yep, learn it, and be good at it.

Understanding the boundaries of the role, who gets to decide what - that's actually kind of important. A rank-and-file contributor doesn't get to decide when FreeBSD gets released... hell, submitting a patch as an outsider - that alone doesn't get you commit privileges.

The idea of cooperating to work towards a common goal is nice, but it only goes so far.

If you wanna assemble a team of top mathematicians, you start with figuring out where they come from, where is your best bet to look. And naturally, one would look at places like Harvard or Oxford or something on par with those. And within those, among the people who actually get good grades and know their stuff - there just won't be much diversity, it will end up being not exactly a priority.

It kind of takes some effort and self-discipline to not be a jerk, and to be able to get on the same page with others about what to do. Birds of a feather do flock together.
 
astyle said:
I never liked the idea of 'family' in the workplace. When the boss says 'We're all a big family', that really creeps me out.
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Except the boss never said that.

The point I made later in my comment was that we hired people who were "one of us". iow, we felt comfortable with them in their personality. They helped each other out and were "work friends".
 
astyle said:
I think there's kind of a difference between tolerating somebody's vice (on account that they are quite competent technically) and realizing that you hired a DEI candidate who turns out to be utterly incompetent and frankly does more harm than good to the project.

If one first has the technical competence and can show that, then yeah, DEI barely begins to matter at that point. But getting those things out of order results in nonsensical mud-slinging that wastes everybody's time.

I'd compare it to swimming in the Amazon... If you have the skill to bite back, you survive, and even thrive in there. There's kind of a reason that electric eels call that river home... even if some electric eels are shorter than others of the same kind.
View attachment 23176
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Nice saying.
 
msplsh said:
Originally it was about an unprompted Just Asking Questions that weirdly targeted one person for their orientation.

Now it's for people to complain about a hot political topic in the USA.
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Yeah, you can look at chatbots as one of many too-simple answers to the JAQ situation... 😒 Man, today I definitely learned something...

Now I know why everybody wants a receptionist.
 
astyle's comment about wanting a receptionist reminds me.. when I first entered the work world, in the mid 70's. the place I worked had a sign on the wall. It was a small business, office supplies, which at the time could actually be pretty lucrative--at the time we handled all the printing for an automotive manufacturer. We had a receptionist, and when people called, they were connected to a knowledgeable person. I remember, during a broken heart period for me, the receptionist answering, "Is Scott available? Honey, is he ever!" But anyway, at the time none of this was unique. And we had a sign on the wall, something like, If you are ever not completely satisfied, let us know. We cannot afford a dissatisfied customer and will do anything within reason to prevent it"

That attitude, as well as human receptionists, has lonngggg gone. While I'm sure that many of us do care about keeping our clients, (users for say, support people, companies for sysadmins, or whatever), happy, it seems that we have lost the urge to keep the customer happy. That is a bad thing, in my arrogant opinion. Of course, there are thousands of exceptions to the client/customer is always right, many of them are jerks, but the whole feeling of that being the norm has gone.
 
Well, you partly answered your own question.
You gave an example of a famous and public figure (Mr Mcusick) and quite loyally wished him all the best.
I also wish Desmond Child all the best, because he wrote masterpiece songs.
 
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