Solved Is FreeBSD for Business Use . . . No Longer an Option?

D

Dave-D

First I want to say this:

I absolutely LOVE FreeBSD. I've been messing around with it extensively over the last couple of years.
I came from Linux, I've never liked any operating system more than I've liked FreeBSD.

So what I just discovered has me disturbed, to say the least.

I hope I'm missing something major here.
I hope that its just me.

Did I just find out that there is NO sane means of support for business use?

That cannot be right.

Let me explain...

The manual says that major releases (for example, 13.0-RELEASE) will be guaranteed support for 5 years. Which includes patches and security updates.
Makes sense to me.
Businesses can stick with the major x.0 releases and upgrade every 4 to 6 years.
Much more sane for businesses.

However, it appears that's not the case.

Since I'm having NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS with the latest 13.2-RELEASE,
I went back to 13.1-RELEASE (which worked fine with no problems),
however, I get "version mismatch" problems and nothing works.

I've been running on 13.1-RELEASE for over a year with no issues.
Now that is no longer possible. No security updates. No software installs. Version mismatches. Broken everything.

SO...

I just tried installing 13.0, and got the following message:
WARNING: FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE HAS PASSED ITS END-OF-LIFE DATE.
Any security issues discovered after Tue Aug 30 20:00:00 EDT 2022 will not have been corrected.

SO...

In spite of what the manual claims, I am stuck running ONLY 13.2-RELEASE,
bearing with the problems,
and being forced to upgrade my whole business system (likely) every 6 months,
and also to bear with the problems that come with the most-recent released versions.

I have no problem contributing, all of us should do so,
within reason.

SO...

I am now in the computer upgrade and support business,
which will eat my normal business operations alive.

SO...

I see no sane path left for businesses of any size running FreeBSD
whether for server or desktop use, under the (apparently current / newly updated)
support model.

SO...

Am I missing something major here,
or is it time to look for a different operating system?


I always thought FreeBSD was mainly ABOUT business.
After all, who else in the last 20+ years ran FreeBSD servers?
Mainly Business, I would think.

I'm hoping like crazy that I'm totally wrong.

ADDED BY OP ==> I WAS TOTALLY WRONG!
The problem was my own lack of knowledge.
Problem solved.
Tons of info here for anyone interested...
 
Last edited:
CyberCr33p said:
"Under the current support model, each major version’s stable branch is explicitly supported for 5 years, while each individual point release is only supported for three months after the next point release."

Reference: https://www.freebsd.org/security/
Click to expand...

I'm fully aware of what the manual says.
Which would make sense for business.

Apparently things are not as the manual says.

Why do I get the following message when trying to install 13.0-RELEASE,
which, according to the manual, should be supported...

Dave-D said:
I just tried installing 13.0, and got the following message:
WARNING: FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE HAS PASSED ITS END-OF-LIFE DATE.
Any security issues discovered after Tue Aug 30 20:00:00 EDT 2022 will not have been corrected.
Click to expand...

SO...
Apparently there is nothing "supported" except the 13.2-RELEASE.
There-in lies the problem.
Problem #1: 13.2-RELEASE is giving me nothing but problems.
Problem #2: I cannot be forced to upgrade a whole business system every 6 months
to stay with the one supported release, which becomes unsupported within
3 months following the next point release.
Problem #3: This insanity turns my business into a computer business, putting my main line of business out of business.
 
I might be wrong but in simple word:
stable/13 - 5 years
releng/13.X - needs update every time + up to 3 months when 13.X+1 comes out.
So in your case - you need stable/13 for 5 ytears

FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE = current/ bleeding edge - almost like roling​

FreeBSD 13.2-STABLE = stable​

I might be wrong here but these 2 are different. On downlaod page you havge to scroll down a bit down to get to stable ones.
But maybe im wrong.
 
GlitchyDot said:
So in your case - you need stable/13 for 5 ytears
Click to expand...

Exactly. That makes sense.
BUT
That is NOT the case.

Why do I get the following message when trying this morning to install 13.0-RELEASE?

Dave-D said:
I just tried installing 13.0, and got the following message:
WARNING: FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE HAS PASSED ITS END-OF-LIFE DATE.
Any security issues discovered after Tue Aug 30 20:00:00 EDT 2022 will not have been corrected.
Click to expand...

See above post as well.
.
 
13.X is supported for 5 years and each separate version, for example 13.0 is supported for 3 months after 13.1 is released. Few days ago I got a message that 13.1 is not supported so I upgrade some jails to 13.2 to be able to upgrade the ports.
 
Dave-D said:
Why do I get the following message when trying this morning to install 13.0-RELEASE?
Click to expand...
Because 13.0 expired three months after the release of 13.1. And 13.1 expired three months after the release of 13.2.

www.freebsd.org

Unsupported FreeBSD Releases

FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.
www.freebsd.org www.freebsd.org
 
GlitchyDot said:

FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE = current/ bleeding edge - almost like roling​

FreeBSD 13.2-STABLE = stable​

I might be wrong here but these 2 are different. On downlaod page you havge to scroll down a bit down to get to stable ones.
Click to expand...

The only "stable" releases I see on that page are:
13.2-STABLE
12.4-STABLE

Are these the most recent "stable" releases that come with 5 years of patches and security releases?

If so, where can I find out when this support ends?
 
Dave-D said:
Are these the most recent "stable" releases that come with 5 years of patches and security releases?
Click to expand...
What do you think those point releases are? You don't seem to have any idea of how this works.

forums.freebsd.org

LTS support and version clarifications

Hello everybody, I have read the documentation for a while but have not been able to clarify my doubts. I will try to be as short as possible. At present according to this table: https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup the latest LTS version is Stable 12. So if I wanted to have a long support I...
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org

I suggest you give that whole thread a read actually.
forums.freebsd.org

LTS support and version clarifications

Hello everybody, I have read the documentation for a while but have not been able to clarify my doubts. I will try to be as short as possible. At present according to this table: https://www.freebsd.org/security/#sup the latest LTS version is Stable 12. So if I wanted to have a long support I...
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org

Dave-D said:
If so, where can I find out when this support ends?
Click to expand...
13.0 was released in April 2021, thus 13.x will be supported at least until April 2026. Only the latest minor version of every major branch is supported. That's how it works.

www.freebsd.org

FreeBSD Security Information

FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.
www.freebsd.org www.freebsd.org

If you build from source you can track the stable/* branches, but we expect you to update it often too.
 
GlitchyDot said:
I might be wrong but in simple word:
stable/13 - 5 years
releng/13.X - needs update every time + up to 3 months when 13.X+1 comes out.
So in your case - you need stable/13 for 5 ytears

FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE = current/ bleeding edge - almost like roling​

FreeBSD 13.2-STABLE = stable​

I might be wrong here but these 2 are different. On downlaod page you havge to scroll down a bit down to get to stable ones.
But maybe im wrong.
Click to expand...

You have it a little backwards. FreeBSD-CURRENT is the rolling release/bleeding edge FreeBSD.

13.2-STABLE is the semi-rolling release, sort of a beta version of -RELEASE. It's not "stable" in the sense of it being the long term supported final version, but it's also not bleeding edge.

Then 13.2-RELEASE is the stable production release.
 
SirDice said:
What do you think those point releases are? You don't seem to have any idea of how this works.
Click to expand...

No need to get grumpy.
I'm not an idiot.
This is all very confusing.
The manual only makes it more confusing.

puppydog said:
You have it a little backwards. FreeBSD-CURRENT is the rolling release/bleeding edge FreeBSD.

13.2-STABLE is the semi-rolling release, sort of a beta version of -RELEASE. It's not "stable" in the sense of it being the long term supported final version, but it's also not bleeding edge.

Then 13.2-RELEASE is the stable production release.
Click to expand...

Looks like I'm not the only one confused.
 
puppydog said:
You have it a little backwards. FreeBSD-CURRENT is the rolling release/bleeding edge FreeBSD.

13.2-STABLE is the semi-rolling release, sort of a beta version of -RELEASE. It's not "stable" in the sense of it being the long term supported final version, but it's also not bleeding edge.

Then 13.2-RELEASE is the stable production release.
Click to expand...
Gotcha - thats why i said: Im maybe wrong :)
Sometimes i get confused by wording :)
Thanks for clarifying !
 
From the manual:

X.Y-RELEASEreleng/X.YThe Release version plus only critical security and bug fix patches. This branch is recommended for most users.
X.Y-STABLEstable/XThe Release version plus all additional development on that branch. STABLE refers to the Applications Binary Interface (ABI) not changing, so software compiled for earlier versions still runs. For example, software compiled to run on FreeBSD 10.1 will still run on FreeBSD 10-STABLE compiled later.
STABLE branches occasionally have bugs or incompatibilities which might affect users, although these are typically fixed quickly.

I've been running the "RELEASE" versions. Was not aware of the "STABLE" versions.
Yes, theres a lot to learn.

Should I run the most recent "STABLE" release, or maybe stay one "STABLE" version behind (the idea being the hope that its even more 'stable')
in this case, if the most recent available are 13.2-STABLE and 12.4-STABLE, go with the 12.4-STABLE?

THANK YOU all for your help and patience.
 
Dave-D said:
I'm not an idiot.
This is all very confusing.
Click to expand...
I agree with you that the nomenclature that FreeBSD choose to its branches are a bit confusing. I think the OBSD approach is better in that regard:
Release: the last version released without security patches
Stable: the last version released with the security patches
Current: Development branch, similar to a rolling release

This is not a post about "Why FreeBSD is more like X?", please don't delete my post, thank you S2!
 
puppydog said:
You have it a little backwards. FreeBSD-CURRENT is the rolling release/bleeding edge FreeBSD.

13.2-STABLE is the semi-rolling release, sort of a beta version of -RELEASE. It's not "stable" in the sense of it being the long term supported final version, but it's also not bleeding edge.

Then 13.2-RELEASE is the stable production release.
Click to expand...

This is what I thought, but sounds like that might be wrong.
 
FreeBSD provides an Application Binary Interface (ABI). An ABI is a set of rules and specifications that allows software (especially binaries and libraries) to function correctly without needing to be recompiled. It defines how functions are called, the layout of data structures, and even how system calls are invoked. The word "STABLE" means that it has stable ABI. That's why when we do a major upgrade for example from 12.4 to 13.2 we have to rebuild all the ports or temporary use misc/compat12x.
 
Dave-D said:
No need to get grumpy.
Click to expand...
No need to get offended either :)
You might get a slightly warmer treatment if you open with a slightly less provocative wording next time ;)
Rather than asking you seem to have asserted harsh - potentially borderline provocative - statements. So responses might be expected to be similarly harsh.

Dave-D said:
I'm not an idiot.
This is all very confusing.
Click to expand...
Nobody is calling you an idiot. Everything is confusing until learned or familiarized. It's perfectly fine. Most of us have been in a similar situation. There are plenty of things that I perceive as confusing because I haven't familiarized myself with them yet :)
 
CyberCr33p said:
FreeBSD provides an Application Binary Interface (ABI). An ABI is a set of rules and specifications that allows software (especially binaries and libraries) to function correctly without needing to be recompiled. It defines how functions are called, the layout of data structures, and even how system calls are invoked. The word "STABLE" means that it has stable ABI. That's why when we do a major upgrade for example from 12.4 to 13.2 we have to rebuild all the ports or temporary use misc/compat12x.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the whole undertaking is a monumental task.

I appreciate everything FreeBSD offers, and all that the devs and others contribute.

But I know from my own experience that documentation often runs behind development
which leaves users sometimes struggling to understand and use the incredible tools we're provided with.

Its nice when we can all at least work together and help each other.

That is what matters!
 
jbo said:
You might get a slightly warmer treatment if you open with a slightly less provocative wording next time ;)
Rather than asking you seem to have asserted harsh - potentially borderline provocative - statements. So responses might be expected to be similarly harsh.
Click to expand...

Point taken.

I've been involved with computers for 30+ years so I'm pretty used to getting screwed over in one way or another.
So I might at times over-react, thinking, "here we go again."
I'm just trying to run a business, but thats tough when you have to use computers and everything's a game of "gotcha."
I know FreeBSD is not that way, and its refreshing, to say the least.
That's why I was SO disappointed at the beginning of this post.

I'll try to calm down and be more rational.

Thanks for your patience and for understanding.
 
Oh boy. It seems people got very used to this "LTS" model, so it's hard to grasp something different.

No, "going back" to an older minor release is never a sane option. And in fact, if you're running into issues after a minor upgrade, chances are the problem was at your end. I don't say that's guaranteed, bugs happen of course. But just from experience: it's the more likely cause.

FreeBSD does not use some LTS model. Instead, all minor releases of the same major version are branched from the same "stable" branch. And the naming "stable" has a meaning here: The ABI (kernel and all the base userland libs) is kept stable! This means, there can't be any "breaking change" going from one minor release to the next, just new features (unless, of course, bugs ...)

This "stable" branch from where the minor releases are crafted is guaranteed to be supported for at least 5 years. Should really be enough ?
 
zirias@ said:
This "stable" branch from where the minor releases are crafted is guaranteed to be supported for at least 5 years.
Click to expand...
The key word in the above is "branch".
All software is built off a branch, after some level of testing the software is released/made generally available.
The branch named "current" is the currently active development branch, where new features come in. Things like rewrites of memory allocators, SMP changes, big churns. Yes you will also get security patches and bug fixes, but current is thought of as the next best thing. Current is allowed to change the KABI which has the potential to break existing software.
Stable is just branch off of current, that has been deemed good. Features work, no major problems. A key point about Stable is no KABI/ABI changes.
"releases" are security and bug fixes of stable. Binary updates that give you 13.2-RELEASE-p2 are simply saying "STABLE-13 branch, second minor version, patch level 2"

Think of it all as branches off the main line of development, not as a distinct independent binary release.
That helped me understand how long something is supported, ties right in with the "stable branch being supported for 5 years".

Above is my opinion, agree, disagree, it's all good.
 
Dave-D said:
First I want to say this:

I absolutely LOVE FreeBSD. I've been messing around with it extensively over the last couple of years.
I came from Linux, I've never liked any operating system more than I've liked FreeBSD.

So what I just discovered is disturbing, to say the least.

I hope I'm missing something major here.
I really hope that its just me.

I just discovered that there is NO sane path of ongoing support for business use.

Let me explain...

The manual says that major releases (for example, 13.0-RELEASE) will be guaranteed support for 5 years. Which includes patches and security updates.
Makes sense to me.
Businesses can stick with the major x.0 releases and upgrade every 4 to 6 years.
Much more sane for businesses.

However, that is NOT the case.

Since I'm having NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS with the latest 13.2-RELEASE,
I went back to 13.1-RELEASE (which worked fine with no problems),
however, I get "version mismatch" problems and nothing works.

I've been running on 13.1-RELEASE for over a year with no issues.
Now that is no longer possible. No security updates. No software installs. Version mismatches. Broken everything.

SO...

I just tried installing 13.0, and got the following message:
WARNING: FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE HAS PASSED ITS END-OF-LIFE DATE.
Any security issues discovered after Tue Aug 30 20:00:00 EDT 2022 will not have been corrected.

SO...

In spite of what the manual claims, I am stuck running ONLY 13.2-RELEASE,
bearing with the problems,
and being forced to upgrade my whole business system (likely) every 6 months,
and also to bear with the problems that come with the most-recent released versions.

I have no problem contributing, all of us should do so,
within reason.

SO...

I am now in the computer upgrade and support business,
which will eat my normal business operations alive.

SO...

I see no sane path left for businesses of any size running FreeBSD
whether for server or desktop use, under the (apparently current / newly updated)
support model.

SO...

Am I missing something major here,
or is it time to look for a different operating system?


I always thought FreeBSD was mainly ABOUT business.
After all, who else in the last 20+ years ran FreeBSD servers?
Mainly Business, I would think?
Click to expand...

Perhaps we should get back to the root of the issue (it seems) - what issues are you running into on 13.2?

You shouldn’t be running into anything major going from 13.1 to 13.2. As always, updating with boot environments is always a good choice in case you find some corner case others have not.
 
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