How do you fix a crumbling society?

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Phishfry You know what I am curious about? Why, with all the possible places around, did you come here with your troubles? Not that I don't have a pretty good idea, but that might be part of the solution.
 
PMc said:
such places seem not to exist anymore.
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Not all of them, not everywhere, but if you look, you may find.
You're a unix guy.
To me unix philosophy also means:
There is always an alternative.
So always keep an eye open for alternatives, and be ready for them:
Do I really need it?
The way it is?
Can I become friends with another way, or something different?
Or can it even be done completely otherwise?

Nobody can forbid you to found you own web(sites), which target is not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data.

drhowarddrfine said:
It seems no one wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. Everyone is looking for fault in everyone else
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That's the whole point exactly.

Changes force people to adept, to think, to work on themselves, to change - take responsibility.
But this is inconvient and needs effort.
Besides changes are scaring.
And scare leads to agression.
So people are attracted to stability.
That's what the politicians with easy ways tell their voters:
easy ways, stabilty and security

But then you'd better stayed in the middleages.
The most stable time in civilization we had: nothing changed much over thousand years.
If you want progress - to earn money with it - you get change.
And if your society is not capable to keep up,
e.g. because of you spent the money into economic growth instead of shools,
than sooner or later you get a big gap between what should be and what is.

drhowarddrfine said:
It's difficult to be a decent, moral law-abiding citizen nowadays.
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yes.
But what are the alternatives?

Fact:
90% we learn we learn by imitation - what we see how others behave.
10% only by what we read, or what us is told.
So the solution is as clear as simple:
Reduce the crap watched on TV (Youtube, Cinema, netflix, whatever (It's about the program, not the channel))
and live exemplary. (Kant)
Anything else ends in catastrophy.
In my eyes there is no need to discuss the details about the catastrophy's whens and hows.
One has to prevent it.
 
Crivens said:
Why, with all the possible places around, did you come here with your troubles?
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I don't consider them troubles. More like nags.
Perhaps I was hoping someone could provide a fresh insight into a solution for societies ills.
I consider this forum my home. So asking like minded peoples opinions seemed natural.
Consider it a squishy human interest post.
Watching the rule of law collapse so quickly is very startling to me. Especially as I grow nearer to retirement.
Will there be anything left for me to retire too? Escape from USA needed?
When I get older I cannot defend myself. Will I be defended by police or coaxed into euthanasia like Canada?
The cruelness of our society is very stark.
 
Phishfry said:
Escape [] needed?
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Where to?
Into a country where money means liberty? (South America, Africa, Asia? There is no lack of such countries.)
And when you run out of money, your "liberty" also ends, because you stop being the "Colonel".
Then you're faced with the hard reality in those countries, such as their examplary medical system.

Europe?
We over here see the USA as the role model, imitating much you do, running into the same troubles, doing the same mistakes...

Three weeks ago the kids mithered their neighbourhood by playing halloween, because they've seen it on tv.

But you're free not to do it.
I've installed a switch to interrupt the door bell. It's not my job feeding middle class stranger's mendicant kids with sweets out off my pay.
I was thinking of hanging a sign in front my door with a crossed out pumpkin:
"We are no yankees here!" - but my wife was against it 😅

I am waiting for europeans celebrating thanksgiving - it will come when USA have too much turkeys they cannot sell 😁
If you ask people what it is about, you'll probably get the answer: feeding on turkey and boozing - the usual
What's christmas about?
feeding, boozing and getting presents.
NO!
The origin - christian - idea is to make a gift, not to get one!

Sometimes I hear the point:
"When too many foreigners are here, I move into another country."
Think about it:
Because somebody is annoyed of foreigners he decides to become one himself. 🤪

For myself I am a foreigner living in another country for over 15 years.
And still I am an alien, a nusiance, actually.
People often turning their backs on me immediately, just because of my different accent, only.

Living in another country is an expierence I can recommend to many.
It teaches you a lot about your own country,
the way you thought about it when you were home,
and how it feels to be an alien.

And I live in a neighbourcountry, only.
(almost) the same language, same culture, same religion, same colour...
I have an idea what it could mean to be black beyond whites and/or muslim beyond christians...

But - and that's the important part - the answer is not:
"They don't must come."
One need to ask why people leave their homes they also love as anybody else.
And what we can do, they can stay at home.
-> responsibility

We need to find ways to live together - cause that's what we do.
What is the alternative, the not-living-together?
Do we want this?
So we must find solutions, alternatives,
and not avoid problems by running away and blame others.

There are many solutions.
Known for a long time.
They only need to be taken seriously and be done.

peace out.


P.S.:
There is something like Offtopic - means to me anything can be discussed within.
You moderators may consider if Offtopic still occurs within "Latest Posts".
 
Phishfry said:
I feel our society in the USA is seriously breaking down.
Just last night seven killings in a Walmart only 5 miles away.
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The main problem and also sometimes strength of the USA is the resilience of its constitution for changes. It is nowadays nearly impossible to change at all.

In the constitution are many elements, which made sense in the old days but not in the modern era, which you could not get rid of, for example like the electoral college.

Another problem is the interior and cultural split between metropolitan and rural areas, amongst others. You've got not one nation in the borders of the states, but many different ones.

How to fix it? Only way I can think about is starting a revolution, all others are doomed to fail.
 
hardworkingnewbie said:
How to fix it? Only way I can think about is starting a revolution, all others are doomed to fail.
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Revolutions are an ugly thing, and you may well end up worse than before. Ask the french. Or the russians, for that matter.
Maybe we are better off when we would honor things that are good for a society, not those which are bad. Those need to be shunned. It will take some time, we did not arrive here over night.
 
Phishfry said:
In the old days people were afraid of going to jail.
The death penalty was the ultimate sanction.
Now it has no meaning. Very few are executed and we warehouse criminals instead.

Should the standards for the death penalty be lowered?
Bring back public executions in the public square?
Allow the victims to extract vengeance? Public flogging for littering?

How do you scare people into acting right?
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I think the problem is in drugs. They make people "brave" and ignore jail and other consequences.
 
Profighost said:
Not all of them, not everywhere, but if you look, you may find.
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Yes, one may. Or one may not.

Profighost said:
You're a unix guy.
To me unix philosophy also means:
There is always an alternative.
So always keep an eye open for alternatives, and be ready for them:
Do I really need it?
The way it is?
Can I become friends with another way, or something different?
Or can it even be done completely otherwise?
Click to expand...
That is engineering. So there is a systemic difference: with engineering, you are the one who is outside of the system you design. With society you are inside, are part of it.

I was imagining You could just tell me: look, there is this and this and this for an example.

Profighost said:
Nobody can forbid you to found you own web(sites), which target is not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data.
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I probably can. But to "not spawn rubbish and collect peoples data" is not the point. There are so infinitely many bugs in current society, that I'm horrified and overwhelmed, I can't sleep at night. And I am utterly alone, and when I only start talking to people about these bugs and that they should be fixed, then people will get disappointed and no longer talk to me. I didn't talk to anybody (about personal things) for a couple of years - because there is nobody. Putting flesh to it: I think the last time was in 2019, when I asked some people I vaguely know about the whereabouts of another lady I am very fond of (she's an artist and way beyond my reach). Anyway, last year that artist lady was stabbed by a religious fanatic, she's dead now.

So this is what's going on.
 
Profighost said:
Reduce the crap watched on TV (Youtube, Cinema, netflix, whatever (It's about the program, not the channel))
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Actually, just don't watch television news and social media outlets like reddit (especially reddit!).

Learn how things are actually are by going outside and looking around. You'll find nothing that you saw or read about is actually a reality in your neighborhood or about you. The reason it's on those sources is because it's a one off thing that gets people excited and that's why it's there. If not for TV "news" or social media, you'd never hear about it otherwise and you wouldn't care anyway.

EDIT: Example. My niece-in-law (if there is such a thing) was a journalism degreed news producer for the local NBC affiliate. She spent her days surfing the internet looking for shopping deals to show. Which goes to show how low TV "news journalism" has gone.

When I worked in television, long ago, all the reporters were ex-newspaper men.
 
Alain De Vos said:
Maybe the problem is trying to fix. If it's broken accept it as it is ?
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Sadly, that doesn't work. Because, when it becomes unbearable, we need at least the right to kill ourselves.
And that again is opposed by another group of people, for understandable reasons:
Phishfry said:
When I get older I cannot defend myself. Will I be defended by police or coaxed into euthanasia like Canada?
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Also there are people who think our society being so incrediby beautiful that only madmen could want to kill themselves, and therefore they should be locked up instead.
 
forquare said:
This is a terrifying position, to me. It reminds me of the old "if you don't believe in God then how do you resist rape, pillage, and murder?"
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That one would be a interesting question. And, since actually lots of rape, pillage and murder was committed in the Name of God, the opposite would be just as interesting: if you do believe in God, then how...

But nowadays the stance is: other people are inherently evil. Therefore they must be forced to behave in a way so that I am not suffering.

And while the law&order folks always had a fancy with this logic, now the leftist have found their pendant: other people are inherently evil and destroy the planet. So we must suppress them and make them hunger and freeze in order to (presumably) save the planet.
And they don't even believe in God.

So in the outcome you're always an evil person to most other people. And then the interesting question becomes: why should you resist rape, pillage and murder, as you're an evil person already?
 
A 10 minute video? Can you summarize in a sentence or three? Sorry, not going to watch it.
Note that Fox news, for example, was really playing up crime before the elections, now they don't. Hrrm.
For those shocked at all the shootings, who did you vote for? What are their positions on it? That's why we have so many shootings. Oh, did y'all note that stand your ground laws don't seem to apply, save to white men?

www.thedailybeast.com

The Case Proving ‘Stand Your Ground’ Is for White Men Only

The new Netflix documentary “State of Alabama vs. Brittany Smith” uses one tragic case to reveal the misogynistic and racist double standards of the legal system.
www.thedailybeast.com

Seems like many in the US want to bring Sharia law here. Responsibility? Law enforcement. In NYC, cops were put on a train to catch a slasher. He started slashing someone, so the brave police quickly reacted, hiding in the conductor's booth. Later a court said, they're not obligated to protect anyone. Fortunately, the victim was a martial artist, and subdued the slasher, when the brave police then quickly came out and arrested him.

On the other hand, they're quick to act when an unarmed person is selling loose cigarettes, executing him on the spot. Do y'all think I'm making this up?

NOTE: There is a photo below in the link of the cops putting the victim in a chokehold for those who find it upsetting.

en.wikipedia.org

Killing of Eric Garner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Maksim Gelman stabbing spree - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Quick summaries for the impatient.
Garner was selling loose cigarettes and police put him a chokehold, killing him.

Gelman killed 5 people. He attacked Lozito on the subway, stabbing his hands and face. Lozito fought back, taking Gelman to the ground, and our heroic cops then came out of the motorman's booth and arrested him. Later, a judge ruled that they weren't obligated to protect Lozito, as he sued them for hiding in the motorman's booth when he was attacked.
On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito.
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But again, for those upset at the shootings, look at who you are voting for. And who they put on the supreme court.
 
In many cases, the law is a matter of managing expectations. I expect you to stop at that stop sign. If you don't, accidents will happen. Thinking that stop sign is stupid and you'll ignore it is equally stupid.
 
Lets have a look at that Jordan Peterson first, and then at the other side. As I said before, it is all so full of horrible bugs one might want to despair.

I don't know which God this Jordan Peterson believes in, but apparently it is the same got as Manifest Destiny believed in: a God who would consider it a good thing to kill the Indians and steal their land. Who would consider it a good thing to enslave the Africans have have them do all the work. Who would consider it a good thing to just use up the Chinese people and let them die while building the railways. Who would consider it a good thing to wage war in all parts of the world and killing lots of people for the sake of "democracy", And so on and so on.
Because, if you carefully watch his videos, what is the solution he comes up with for the environmental problem: it's what is called "fracking". That means, destroying the soil and the ground water entirely and practically making the place uninhabitable, just for the sake to rip off still a little bit more of ressources from the earth in order to make money from.
And then he concludes that this would achieve a lot more for the climate than all the governmental efforts. Given, the the latter may be just as selfishly botched and useless, but what good does this proposal?
Okay, it allows certain people to make a lot of money. And that's all. At some point these "natural gas" ressources will be used up, just like other oil and gas ressources will be. And then, there will be still the same problem, there will be a bunch more of CO2 produced, and a lot of gound made a desert and thrown away.
So it is just the usual "destroy and throw away" strategy. Destroy and throw away Vietnam, destroy and throw away Afghanistan. Destroy and throw away Iraq. And so on and so on.

So thats one example. Now lets look in another direction:

Profighost said:
But - and that's the important part - the answer is not:
"They don't must come."
One need to ask why people leave their homes they also love as anybody else.
And what we can do, they can stay at home.
-> responsibility
Click to expand...
This is widespread telltale, and it is factually wrong, and a misleading abuse of sentimentality.
Why do "people leave their home"? First and most important: it's not "people", it is to the biggest part young men (but this fact is consequently suppressed by the propaganda media). Then, it is perfectly normal for young men at some point to leave their home, venture out into the world, to somewhere make a fortune or win a kingdom or the like. Everybody knows this, even the fairytales are full of it.
So what we have to deal with is mostly not just people, but soldiers of fortune. But we are getting told that these young men would actually be poor homeless victims, and that we should take "responsibility" for them!?! They're already priviledged, while our elderly have to search for stuff in the waste-baskets.

So it's all the same: every side is telling us lies, all the time.
And then they espect us to become fans of their lies (termed "followers"), and they expect us to fight for them - to fight all the other people who happen to believe in a different lie!
And that way society is split into separate and hostile fractions - and that is done deliberately.
 
I believe we fix a crumbling society by getting involved. Vote for politicians who care about representing your interests. and improving your community You have a say in making things better.
Become active in your community and make a difference. I'm a recovering addict. I've been clean 7 and 1/2 years. I give back by working with other addicts and encourage them to overcome active addiction. When you care about others and help them it does make a difference. We are not powerless.
 
I say, "Fooey."

2Oyl-3924126922.png
 
We are starting to fall into the rabbit hole here, so we need to clean up soon.
There is a global effect of society getting worse, it seems. But there is no use in the blinders shown here. Left versus Right, Liberals, Conservatives, does not matter. Smokescreens. The problem is outside of that, because it is everywhere. So maybe start thinking outside of these blinders.
 
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