Are FreeBSD developers ever going to start focusing on user facing stuff?

@throAU, being user friendly - it's a tradeoff most of the time, but what a developer can do is "shorten the gap" it creates. You may have a situation where it takes some time and efford to get things going and you can make the most common case as easy as possible. What the developer should not do is raising the bar for the other cases. Windows kind-of does that. When you do not have an out-of-the-box driver for your hardware, you are basically out of luck. But the common case (driver is somewhere in the box with the hardware) is easy, that is being user friendly. Just not hacker friendly ;)

What I tried to point out is that there are other interests mixed up in this. For some, wasting your time is their business. Spammers are a prime example for this (BTW, I read a good idea about spammers: They belong in prison, together with inmates who had their dingdong enlarged, swallow Viagra by the handful and are looking for a new love in their area.)

The side effect of Windows being user-friendly is that life gets harder for anyone else, not only on Windows. That's why we have these cursed win-printers, win-modems and what not, while no real standard is enforced at the hardware/software border. Such standards would free enormous amounts of development resources, of time and money. But there are interests against this. What is needed here is ignoring them and when necessary even fight them. Just look at KMS/GEM/... What is the benefit? Because the price is a lot of time, bugs, frustration and angry users who find their hardware now no longer working. These need to spend their time getting back, or they deem this no longer worth their time and go away. How many great ideas are lost by such things?

On the other hand, if everyone is comfortable with what they have, there will be no progress.
 
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Crivens said:
(BTW, I read a good idea about spammers: They belong in prison, together with inmates who had their dingdong enlarged, swallow Viagra by the handful and are looking for a new love in their area).
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I'll split this off if it starts to sidetrack the discussion, but in the meantime:

Are you insane? You can't be seriously suggesting that public money is spent to reward spammers with a roof over their head, three square meals a day and a love life that no doubt some of those creeps will actually enjoy.

I suggest we slap them a huge fine on a first offence. And on a second offence, it's into the nearest waste incineration plant they go. It's fast, efficient, cheap and might even make them slightly useful to society. I'm not normally in favour of capital punishment, but spammers deserve to be made an exception for ;) Essentially, it's simply waste disposal, which is exactly what those plants are for in the first place.
 
thorbsd said:
I can't even begin to help if my mouse doesn't work.
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I got a new Dell laptop three weeks ago. Its touchpad doesn't work with the xf86-input-whatever drivers either but it does work with the moused() service, which can also be used in X11.
 
Since I am new here , and thus prone to mistakes, let me ask something which is tangential to this thread - what's the origin of the clear antipathy, almost blatant dislike for Linux developers by *BSD developers and vice-versa? Is it only the GPL vs. BSD licensing legalities? Is it the Linux kernel design? I exist on other forums and there is this chronic disease thread of Stallman vs. De Raadt vs. Torvalds vs. etc., etc. Is it just an ego thing, or are there real distinctions worth visiting? Finally, how could FreeBSD benefit from this situation, and become as vibrant as Ubuntu is now to many in the open source community?
 
I don't have any antipathy towards Linux kernel developers at all. In my opinion the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's kernel in many ways. What I dislike very strongly is the GNU userland and the lack of stability in the programming APIs across the board.
 
I'll skip technical distinctions; your favourite search engine can help with them better than me.

I suspect much of the perceived aversion is a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" effect, where a small number from each camp voice their disdain and we take notice, while most users who appreciate the synergetic relationship stay quiet. On the other hand, while disputes on the mailing lists (where much of the real discussions take place, at least for the BSDs) are uncommon, some lively ones do occur from time to time. It also seems to be a part of human nature to distinguish ourselves by our team/religion/political party/club and justify our position with self-deception and rhetoric.

As far as FreeBSD becoming more mainstream, I don't see it happening because our target audience just isn't the same as Ubuntu's. However projects like PC-BSD, which are based on FreeBSD, may gain a larger user base.

@kpa, would you be able to elaborate on your opinion that the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's in many ways?
 
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@tingo: There is no real reason to worry about FreeBSD becoming mainstream for the moment. It's remaining a toolbox. Linux has only entered the business market with a few distributions:
  • Red Hat
  • SuSe
  • Ubuntu
 
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RichardET said:
... what's the origin of the clear antipathy, almost blatant dislike for Linux developers by *BSD developers and vice-versa?
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(Not sure if "..." is frowned upon here, but it is a standard method of indicating that one is quoting part of a sentence---so moderate it if you wish, but I stand by its correctness.) [ That is actually one of very few uses for an ellipsis -- Mod. ]

As was said, it's probably a vocal minority. The official stance, at least, if defined by what is printed on the advocacy site at http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html

*BSD is better than (insert other system)

This is user opinion only.

(insert some other system) is better than *BSD

This is user opinion only.
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As I age, I become more opinionated, and try to remember the words of the talented Tina Fey.
“It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don’t like something, it is empirically not good.
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I would guess that there are probably valid arguments for both FreeBSD (and the other BSDs) and Linux, and remember--no idea where I saw it--a comment in a debate about which was better, mutt or pine. I don't remember the exact comment, but it was to the effect that people pull up technical arguments to bolster what is, in the end, an emotional decision.
 
sossego said:
@tingo: There is no real reason to worry about FreeBSD becoming mainstream for the moment. It's remaining a toolbox. Linux has only entered the business market with a few distributions:
  • Red Hat
  • SuSe
  • Ubuntu
Click to expand...

Actually, who can tell what the future holds. Linux is rolling along at tremendous speeds; that is both a good and bad thing. There will always be place for FreeBSD.

As an aside, the quality of discussion here is a tribute to the forum. These topics can get nasty very quickly.
 
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Find someone and pay them to fix your FreeBSD issue/problem. Crowdsource the money if you want.

Get a wad of cash and hand it to a developer(s). Money talks.
 
There is a lot of momentum in the Linux world to slay BSDs, FreeBSD being the first piece to take. Now they are trying to kill the kFreeBSD kernel in Debian (along with Hurd) by trying to change the systemv-init to systemd or upstart. I have seen a post in a discussion of the technical comitee on the subjcet, stating that FreeBSD is the road block on Debian (and thereof Linux) development.

I can not understand why so much hate.
 
Martillo1 said:
There is a lot of momentum in the Linux world to slay BSDs, FreeBSD being the first piece to take. Now they are trying to kill the kFreeBSD kernel in Debian (along with Hurd) by trying to change the systemv-init to systemd or upstart. I have seen a post in a discussion of the technical comitee on the subjcet, stating that FreeBSD is the road block on Debian (and thereof Linux) development.

I can not understand why so much hate.
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If they get rid of it I don't imagine it would be any big loss, the whole thing kind of reminds me of how people weld the good halves of wrecked cars together and sell them as new.:p

Linux is going to do what Linux is going to do.
 
The kFreeBSD based Debian is just an interesting side project for Debian, anyone claiming that it slows down the development of Linux needs a serious reality check.
 
Let's summarize a bit (tounge in cheek, somewhat):
  1. Linux switches to systemd
  2. Linux user land is known to change the APIs more often than the median of the users change their underwear
  3. Maintainance cost and efford will be affected
  4. Hating trolls will stare at non-booting systems and switch to windows to write their hate postings
  5. Some little daemons will sit in their chairs, look at that and snigger

Conclusion: Let's support their move to systemd!

For the record: The Linux kernel is pretty good at keeping APIs/ABIs running. What screws up there is the user land, nine ways to Sunday.
 
kpa said:
I don't have any antipathy towards Linux kernel developers at all. In my opinion the Linux kernel is vastly superior to FreeBSD's kernel in many ways.
Click to expand...

Can somebody post a list of what a FreeBSD kernel is missing compared to Linux?

kpa said:
What I dislike very strongly is the GNU userland and the lack of stability in the programming APIs across the board.
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Well, by not having enough of "user facing stuff" in the base system we are forced to use it from Linux. One needs a decent desktop environment? No problem - welcome to Linux's userland!
 
In my opinion the answer "Do it your self" is appropriate in the FreeBSD domain because FreeBSD is not owned by a single person or a single corporation. It's an effort of people around the world. And it should be looked as this awesome and clean peace of code that one can take and improve it for them self and others by committing the changes back.

Also, IMHO, people compare FreeBSD to Linux WAY TOO MUCH or better to say they want FreeBSD to be like Linux (why does FreeBSD not have this and that drivers/support and Linux has them/it etc) and I can not understand why. This is what confuses me: if Linux or Win or Mac OS fulfill ones needs in terms of desktop usage why don't they just use that? In the desktop/user land domain, call it what ever you want, it makes no difference what is under the hood. One could show PC-BSD to xy people and a great deal of them would not even been aware of the fact that it's not Linux under the hood.

What I'm trying to say is that if one is not happy with the fact that FreeBSD has no driver for their WiFi/GPU/etc AND is not willing to get their hands dirty (or thinks that they should not) then FreeBSD is definitely the wrong domain for them and should use what ever OS suits their needs. Why? because the kernel/OS that runes under that, for example, KDE DE is obviously not their concern. If it were they would take the appropriate steps to make it work, and by appropriate steps I mean posting a thread that starts with "How can I *?" and not "Why FreeBSD dose not *?".
 
taz said:
One could show PC-BSD to xy people and a great deal of them would not even been aware of the fact that ist's not Linux under the hood.
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Then PC-BSD must be the worst OS ever, having taken the wrong parts of both worlds, the not so fancy BSD kernel (if what @kpa says is true) and the terrible Linux userland ...

taz said:
What I'm trying to say is that if one is not happy with the fact that FreeBSD has no driver for their wifi/gpu/etc AND is not willing to get their hands dirty (or thinks that they should not) then FreeBSD is definitely the wrong domain for them and should use what ever OS suits their needs. Why? because the kernel/OS that runes under that, for example, KDE DE is obviously not their concern. If it where they would take the appropriate steps to make it work, and by appropriate steps I mean posting a thread that starts with "How can I *?" and not "Why FreeBSD dose not *?".
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I am very interested in contributing myself. Last week I even ordered the book "FreeBSD Device Drivers" and hope to be able to write drivers soon.

Can I code my very own Desktop Environment now? NO! Do users need some kind of WM or DE? YES! Does FreeBSD have one? NO! So, welcome to Linux userland again!
 
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vanessa said:
Can I code my very own Desktop Environment now? NO!
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If you think that FreeBSD needs its own DE then learn how do it (just as you will learn how to write a device driver), start a project and try to get the community involved.

Btw. coding up a WM is actually not that hard. A full blown DE is another story though.
 
vanessa said:
Can somebody post a list of what a FreeBSD kernel is missing compared to Linux? ...

Well, by not having enough of "user facing stuff" in the base system we are forced to use it from Linux. One needs a decent desktop environment? No problem - welcome to Linux's userland!
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Since I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop operating system for about 14 years now, am always interested in what people definition of a desktop is. And since you are saying that you are forced to use Linux, should you not have some idea of what you perceive to be missing from the kernel?
 
taz said:
Btw. coding up a WM is actually not that hard. A full blown DE is another story though.
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I actually find writing the WM to be really hard, there are so many little things to worry about to make it "support" all the many idiocies that a typical GNOME application requires. Not to mention getting it to work with a task bar or multiple desktops. Writing a full blown DE is certainly time consuming but requires less knowledge of X11.

Luckily I am a purist and so have made peace with the simplest WM I can maintain (DWM) and just substituted the rest of the DE with a bunch of scripts. I would advise anybody to do the same because the desktop situation on open-source systems is abysmal and things like GNOME 3 are killing Linux on the desktop anyway. Even Microsoft added the start button back whereas the GNOME developers are too pig headed to fix their broken software.
 
roddierod said:
Since I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop operating system for about 14 years now, am always interested in what people definition of a desktop is.
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Here is mine: OS X, KDE, GNOME.

roddierod said:
And since you are saying that you are forced to use Linux, should you not have some idea of what you perceive to be missing from the kernel?
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I don't use Linux but I am forced to use its GNU userland by using KDE under FreeBSD. And what is missing from the kernel? I don't know. I just would like to know in what aspect the Linux kernel is superior. This is why I asked.
 
taz said:
If you think that FreeBSD needs its own DE then learn how do it (just as you will learn how to write a device driver), start a project and try to get the community involved.
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Exactly this way of thinking kills many good intentions early. An OS is no DIY project! It is a complex piece of software which needs at least a good dialogue and coordination between many developers.
 
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