Is there a real interest in pushing FreeBSD on the desktop space?

My whole argument was to provide a default desktop to aid in development and usability of the system. No where in my past posts did I claim anything about specific use cases; just an intuitive environment. I don't see how I've contradicted myself, but ok. I'm practically regurgitating what the committers were saying in that video.

Anyway, you can still install you 90s style l33t h4cker window manager if you so choose if this were to happen. it's not the end of the world.
 
I watched the video and I am glad the interesting around the concept of Desktop is again within the goals of FreeBSD Foundation, so I was wrong from the beginning! And I am glad that, for the FreeBSD devs, talking about the desktop space is not a taboo like in here, and in the off-topic zone...

Unfortunately while the documentation is great, is difficult to let understand to other people, that come from a total different paradigm, that you have to build your OS command line by command line, and pray that you hardware will be completely recognized since it does not even exist a live OS to test it out... When I need to do a compatibility test I have to rely on NomadBSD or GhostBSD which do slightly changes respect a regular installation, therefore you are never sure it will work the same later.

Peace... 🙏
 
I just installed Almalinux & Rocky linux. The distro's come by default without any gui. If you want a desktop you need to install it explicitly. Note, both distro's are ranked high in distrowatch so there are alot of users who install a desktop explicitly.
 
Alain De Vos said:
I just installed Almalinux & Rocky linux. The distro's come by default without any gui. If you want a desktop you need to install it explicitly. Note, both distro's are ranked high in distrowatch so there are alot of users who install a desktop explicitly.
Click to expand...

Those distros are a replacement for the defunct CentOS which was the "free" version of RHEL... Now this are distros for server tasks, if you want the free desktop version you have to install Fedora...
 
freezr said:
I watched the video and I am glad the interesting around the concept of Desktop is again within the goals of FreeBSD Foundation, so I was wrong from the beginning!
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Certainly. The mistake is thinking "Desktop" to a developer means "GUI environment". No, it means i.e:
  • Decent manpages
  • Improved power management, suspend
  • Better console (i.e more costomizable, fonts, multi-plexer, etc)
  • Better CLI tools (i.e audio, mounting, wifi, profiling, debuggers)
  • More flexible package management (hopefully relocatable packages!)
Frankly, if a "desktop" is made 100% suitable for a developer. You would probably hate it. Likewise developers hate the user-centric Windows 11 desktop that users probably should be using instead.

X11, Wayland, KDE, Gnome are not FreeBSD's problems and is not something that they will fix. Ask for better FreeBSD support for them on their respective forums perhaps? Specifically, you wouldn't ask Microsoft to make Gnome less shite would you?
 
kpedersen said:
Frankly, if a "desktop" is made 100% suitable for a developer. You would probably hate it. Likewise developers hate the user-centric Windows 11 desktop that users probably should be using instead.
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How many upvotes am I allowed to give?

For a long time my definition of "desktop" was "computer that you used for your daily work, whatever that is".
Sometimes it means a GUI because you need a browser to lookup things on Stack Overflow, sometimes it means "can I open multiple terminal windows so I can vi in one and make in another".

My preferences are likely not yours (hey look yet another KDE vs Gnome vs LXDE vs XFCE vs whatever discussion) which is fine.

Start at the applications. "What do I NEED to run to accomplish my task/job/whatever" Now think "Where do they run". It's almost never the OS, it's about the applications.

My opinion only, agree, disagree, tell me I'm full of it, all good.
 
Beastie7 said:
FreeBSD is intrinsically a server operating system. So it's designed for servers out of the box. Strawman arguments don't help here.



If you're trying to introduce FreeBSD to a group of developers (third party drivers or applications), and those developers wanted something easily accessible to get their code running; having them read the handbook and do post mortem configuration to get a desktop running is a waste of time and resources. This is one of many reasons why they flock to macOS or Windows; there's way less friction. Even for the novice user who's never programmed in their life. Once they see that wall of text flow on their screen; they're not going to know what to do.

Slapping a GUI on the base system to make systems research and development on FreeBSD easier? There's nothing to lose there. You guys need to watch that section of the dev summit.

Besides, the handbook was merely a guide for systems administrators. Putting desktop shit in there is pointless IMO.
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Why are you posting these things here? I don't understand. You seem to be very unhappy with FreeBSD.
 
LibreQuest said:
Why are you posting these things here? I don't understand. You seem to be very unhappy with FreeBSD.
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Very interesting observation. "I can't stand Chevy's" "Why are you driving one, if you don't like Chevy's sell it and get a Ford" "If I did that won't have anything to complain about".

for the non-Americans here Chevy and Ford are two automobile manufacturers. Feel free to substitute.
 
kpedersen said:
Frankly, if a "desktop" is made 100% suitable for a developer. You would probably hate it. Likewise developers hate the user-centric Windows 11 desktop that users probably should be using instead.
Click to expand...
I know lots of professional software engineers (people who get paid large amount of money to program) who use Windows machines as their daily drivers, while developing software for Unix-based environments. Also lots of them with Mac laptops, and lots with Chromebooks. And obviously lots with Linux laptops, and even a few with FreeBSD laptops.

But the notion "programmers hate Windows" is false.
 
ralphbsz said:
But the notion "programmers hate Windows" is false.
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I'm working at a Windows shop. Normally as a software architect, recently as a Lead-Dev (cause I have to step in until a new guy is found).

Ok, maybe people don't "hate" Windows. But even the devs writing software ON and FOR Windows complain about it on a regular basis. 🤷‍♂️
 
ralphbsz said:
But the notion "programmers hate Windows" is false.
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Certainly not but from what I have seen, often it is a lack of knowledge of alternatives (of which the FreeBSD developers have!). This was particularly strong with developers graduating in ~2003. They saw "the only way is Windows". Mostly due to Microsoft's big push of marketing "developer evangelism" at universities during that time (It also helped that Windows as a product wasn't utter scum at that point).

And I would say before that, developers simply couldn't afford UNIX so it was driven through necessity. I always remember on my little DOS/Win3.1 PC, looking in awe at UNIX and the "professionals".

This has changed considerably in recent times, the popularity of WSL compared to its forefather SFU is fairly conclusive proof of this migration of skillset. Especially now when the consumer market for a "desktop" is rapidly declining.

ralphbsz said:
(people who get paid large amount of money to program) who use Windows machines as their daily drivers
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I would also need to be paid an *extraordinarily* large sum of money to develop on Windows as my primary operating system. In the past I have left one job and probably turn down at least 1 contract a year because they are too "Microsoft-like" in their requirements (and entire thought processes). I am fortunate in that I am at a point in my life where I don't need to deal with that old-fashioned inertia anymore.
 
I'm a programmer and I hate Windows.

However, I started programming in assembly language only. I like full control of everything. With Windows, you are required and must use all their system calls to do anything and nothing is straightforward. Trying to accomplish something on a nuts and bolts level is far more difficult and probably the source of some of that hate.
 
zirias@ said:
I'm working at a Windows shop. Normally as a software architect, recently as a Lead-Dev (cause I have to step in until a new guy is found).

Ok, maybe people don't "hate" Windows. But even the devs writing software ON and FOR Windows complain about it on a regular basis. 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
There is WSL, cygwin, msys2
 
ralphbsz said:
I know lots of professional software engineers (people who get paid large amount of money to program) who use Windows machines as their daily drivers, while developing software for Unix-based environments. Also lots of them with Mac laptops, and lots with Chromebooks. And obviously lots with Linux laptops, and even a few with FreeBSD laptops.
Click to expand...
We have two Windows hold-outs, and one duel boots Linux. The rest of us are on Macs.

ralphbsz said:
But the notion "programmers hate Windows" is false.
Click to expand...
I do hate Windows, but would never reject an employer-provided workstation on that basis. That would be unprofessional. The reason I reject Windows workstations at work is that Windows is just too different from our deployment environments, which are all Linux. Even simple things like case sensitivity can introduce build and deployment problems that are hard to troubleshoot. No one likes to work on the build, and I'm no different in that regard.

kpedersen said:
I would also need to be paid an *extraordinarily* large sum of money to develop on Windows as my primary operating system. In the past I have left one job and probably turn down at least 1 contract a year because they are too "Microsoft-like" in their requirements (and entire thought processes). I am fortunate in that I am at a point in my life where I don't need to deal with that old-fashioned inertia anymore.
Click to expand...
The last time I had to use Windows professionally, I spent part of a large bonus they gave me on buying myself a Macbook for real work. I used the Windows laptop as a dumb terminal after that.

Edit: I just realized that was 15 years ago. It would be a serious ding against a prospective employer if they insisted on Windows for their programmers.
 
freezr said:
I watched the video and I am glad the interesting around the concept of Desktop is again within the goals of FreeBSD Foundation, so I was wrong from the beginning! And I am glad that, for the FreeBSD devs, talking about the desktop space is not a taboo like in here, and in the off-topic zone...

Unfortunately while the documentation is great, is difficult to let understand to other people, that come from a total different paradigm, that you have to build your OS command line by command line, and pray that you hardware will be completely recognized since it does not even exist a live OS to test it out... When I need to do a compatibility test I have to rely on NomadBSD or GhostBSD which do slightly changes respect a regular installation, therefore you are never sure it will work the same later.

Peace... 🙏
Click to expand...

Some people are uncomfortable change; even if said change is beneficial without compromise. I'd just leave it at that. Your concerns (which I support) will continue to fall on deaf ears here. Fortunately, the committers are at least bringing the matter to light and making some strides towards better accessibility.

zirias@ said:
Moving the goalpost now?
forums.freebsd.org

Is there a real interest in pushing FreeBSD on the desktop space?

Which desktop? Who decides. How many will leave or not try FreeBSD cause they don't like the desktop chosen.
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org

Well then, this is getting ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Ah, hair splitting and nitpicking at semantics. Your infantile conduct is quite surprising; even as a port committer. We're still open to constructive feedback on the topic.

Carry on.
 
I have a feeling that all of these ideas and goal for "the desktop" would be very welcomed with the GhostBSD team.

They share the goals of making a more Windows, Mac and Linux experience for their project. I have a machine that uses GhostBSD and much of the work they've done is exactly what you would expect to find on Linux or OpenIndiana.

Edit: I'm still very confused about why these things are posted here when users can contribute these ideas with other projects that share their goals.
 
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