say goodbye to /bin, /usr/local/* , ...

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say goodbye to /bin, /usr/local/* , ...

Postby Crivens » 08 Nov 2011, 15:55

Just found this great idea to simplify the system. So let's say goodbye to the idea of [FILE]/usr/local[/FILE] and provide the port maintainers with loads of aspirin in coming updates. Judging from the 'progress' provided by [FILE]udev[/FILE], a good structured system layout will most probably go the way of the dodo - if this goes through.
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Postby Alt » 08 Nov 2011, 16:03

L*x guys started to think about hier(7) ? xDDD
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Postby SirDice » 08 Nov 2011, 16:09

Crivens wrote:Just found this great idea to simplify the system.

I thought they already simplified it? Just drop your stuff anywhere you like x(
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Postby Crivens » 08 Nov 2011, 16:24

Just remembered that there was some trouble with systemd, done by HeWhoShallNotBeNamed. You get a warning when you run a seperate [FILE]/usr[/FILE] file system and "things may break, sometimes silently".
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Postby Alt » 08 Nov 2011, 16:39

+1.
Beware, putting your stuff in [FILE]/usr[/FILE] can lead to this https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1
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Postby gkontos » 08 Nov 2011, 17:01

[FILE]/usr/local[/FILE] is one of the reasons why I use FreeBSD.
I wish that we could also have a [FILE]/var/local[/FILE] as well...
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Postby freethread » 08 Nov 2011, 17:11

Alt wrote:+1.
Beware, putting your stuff in /usr can lead to this https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1


lol

^^^^^ c'mon, he fixed it! :)
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Postby bbzz » 08 Nov 2011, 17:55

Alt wrote:+1.
Beware, putting your stuff in /usr can lead to this https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1


Thank you, thank you so much for bringing this up, I'll be LOL-ing this whole week... :e
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Postby Carpetsmoker » 08 Nov 2011, 22:24

Crivens wrote:Just found this great idea to simplify the system. So let's say goodbye to the idea of [FILE]/usr/local[/FILE] and provide the port maintainers with loads of aspirin in coming updates. Judging from the 'progress' provided by [FILE]udev[/FILE], a good structured system layout will most probably go the way of the dodo - if this goes through.


Actually, this is not such a bad idea IMHO.

Even on FreeBSD, there is no real difference between [FILE]/usr/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/bin[/FILE]; the reasons for the separate directories are mostly historical and no longer valid in 2011. Merging them would be a bit like the [FILE]/usr/X11R6/[/FILE] merge with [FILE]/usr/local/[/FILE] back in FreeBSD 6 (or 5?).

Linux (and thus Fedora) doesn't have a separate [FILE]/usr/local[/FILE] anyway, like it or not, this is how Linux works. And mounting a separate [FILE]/usr/[/FILE] isn't supported on Linux anymore, so why *not* merge these directories?
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Postby gkontos » 08 Nov 2011, 22:39

Carpetsmoker wrote:Actually, this is not such a bad idea IMHO.

Even on FreeBSD, there is no real difference between [FILE]/usr/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/bin[/FILE]; the reasons for the separate directories are mostly historical and no longer valid in 2011. Merging them would be a bit like the [FILE]/usr/X11R6/[/FILE] merge with [FILE]/usr/local/[/FILE] back in FreeBSD 6 (or 5?).

Linux (and thus Fedora) doesn't have a separate [FILE]/usr/local[/FILE] anyway, like it or not, this is how Linux works. And mounting a separate [FILE]/usr/[/FILE] isn't supported on Linux anymore, so why *not* merge these directories?


The main reason is that you can separate OS binaries and settings from software binaries and settings. That way you can easily install/upgrade software without affecting the OS. You can also backup your system more effectively. If we also take into account ZFS snapshots and their rollback ability, we can easily see the benefits of that separation.
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Postby Carpetsmoker » 09 Nov 2011, 02:13

gkontos wrote:The main reason is that you can separate OS binaries and settings from software binaries and settings. That way you can easily install/upgrade software without affecting the OS. You can also backup your system more effectively. If we also take into account ZFS snapshots and their rollback ability, we can easily see the benefits of that separation.


This doesn't apply since we are talking about Linux which doesn't make that distinction.
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Postby anomie » 09 Nov 2011, 02:54

I can't decide whether this is a great idea or not, but I do think their FAQ brings up reasonable points.

In theory, this will bring some simplicity and tidiness to what is currently a bats%^# crazy mess on Fedora (or, I should say, on many recent GNU/Linux distros).
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Postby Crivens » 09 Nov 2011, 09:23

Carpetsmoker wrote:This doesn't apply since we are talking about Linux which doesn't make that distinction.


Yes, but what bugs me is that sooner or later this will be shoved down our throats, no matter if we want it or not. Of course there is no big reason to keep [FILE]/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/usr/bin[/FILE] separate, but when you throw anything into [FILE]/usr/bin[/FILE] anyway you will end up with a great mess.

Also, one of the positive points claimed is that you now can mount [FILE]/usr[/FILE] read-only, but [FILE]systemd[/FILE] does not like it if it is a separate partition. That's where the fun will come in.
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Postby gkontos » 09 Nov 2011, 09:51

Carpetsmoker wrote:This doesn't apply since we are talking about Linux which doesn't make that distinction.


I was just expressing my views about merging this philosophy in FreeBSD.

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Postby SirDice » 09 Nov 2011, 09:55

It's not exactly a 'new' idea.

Code: Select all
dice@labu05:~>uname -a
SunOS labu05 5.8 Generic_108528-29 sun4u sparc SUNW,UltraAX-i2 Solaris
dice@labu05:~>ls -li /bin/tcsh /usr/bin/tcsh
52139 -r-xr-xr-x  1 root bin 331332 Mar 15  2001 /bin/tcsh*
52139 -r-xr-xr-x  1 root bin 331332 Mar 15  2001 /usr/bin/tcsh*
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Postby kpedersen » 09 Nov 2011, 10:33

Yeah but Solaris makes up for that with hundreds of other prefixes (which I love btw)

[FILE]/opt/csw[/FILE]
[FILE]/usr/sfw[/FILE]
[FILE]/usr/5bin[/FILE]
... many many more...

I also think it should be made a legal requirement to put Gnome or other massive software into a separate prefix to the rest of the system.
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Postby Pushrod » 09 Nov 2011, 12:55

I support a merge of [FILE]/usr/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/usr/sbin[/FILE] with [FILE]/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/sbin[/FILE] respectively.

I don't support the same with add-on packages; they belong in a separate hierarchy.
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Postby mix_room » 09 Nov 2011, 13:53

Andrew S. Thanenbaum said it wonderfully:

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from.


Personally I think that the FreeBSD solution is great. [file]/bin[/file] and [file]/sbin[/file] are available at start and belong to the system, while the rest is loaded separately.

Merging [file]/bin[/file] and [file]/sbin[/file] might be more useful on the other hand. Do people use this distinction?
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Postby nakal » 09 Nov 2011, 18:05

Personally I think that the FreeBSD solution is great. [FILE]/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/sbin[/FILE] are available at start and belong to the system, while the rest is loaded separately.


Exactly.

Merging [FILE]/bin[/FILE] and [FILE]/sbin[/FILE] might be more useful on the other hand. Do people use this distinction?


Yes. Usually [FILE]sbin[/FILE] directories are nothing for normal users. Most of the binaries there are for admins. So you can simplify the PATH environment a bit.
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Postby aragon » 10 Nov 2011, 02:21

SirDice wrote:I thought they already simplified it? Just drop your stuff anywhere you like x(

I wonder how long until everything is in [file]/etc[/file]? Linux root filesystem in 2015:

[FILE]/Moviez[/FILE]
[FILE]/Gamez[/FILE]
[FILE]/pr0n[/FILE]
[FILE]/etc[/FILE]

:p
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Postby YZMSQ » 10 Nov 2011, 05:41

aragon wrote:I wonder how long until everything is in [file]/etc[/file]? Linux root filesystem in 2015:

/Moviez
/Gamez
/pr0n
/etc

:p

LOL. Maybe there'll be only one entry: [FILE]/Linux[/FILE]. That's all.
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Postby Alt » 10 Nov 2011, 07:11

Linux root filesystem in 2016:
[FILE]/Program Files/[/FILE]
[FILE]/Program Files(x86)/[/FILE]
[FILE]/My Documents/[/FILE]
[FILE]/boot/[/FILE]
[FILE]/proc/[/FILE]
[FILE]/etc/[/FILE] <-- there is a storage for symlinks to every file in system

[FILE]/usr/[/FILE] was deprecated and removed from all distros because [FILE]systemd[/FILE] & co failed to manage it
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Postby Crivens » 10 Nov 2011, 07:39

aragon wrote:I wonder how long until everything is in [file]/etc[/file]? Linux root filesystem in 2015:

/Moviez
/Gamez
/pr0n
/etc

:p


I won't wager on it. I like my money ;)
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Postby Carpetsmoker » 10 Nov 2011, 11:31

Image what would happen if all the obscure and archaic abbreviations in the UNIX filesystem get replaced by meaningful and logical descriptions ?!?! (:q *gasp* :O *shock* ... :OO)
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Postby Crivens » 10 Nov 2011, 12:02

Carpetsmoker wrote:Image what would happen if all the obscure and archaic abbreviations in the UNIX filesystem get replaced by meaningful and logical descriptions ?!?! (:q *gasp* :O *shock* ... :OO)


Good idea.
But maybe it would be worth a try :)
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