Yahoo! no longer a FreeBSD stronghold?

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Yahoo! no longer a FreeBSD stronghold?

Postby DutchDaemon » 12 Apr 2010, 22:50

Came across a job offering, "Yahoo! is hiring Production Engineers!".

Excerpts:

Develop tools to automate the deployment, administration, and monitoring of a large-scale Linux environment

5+ years experience with Linux (RHEL a plus)


What the hell happened there?
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Postby J65nko » 12 Apr 2010, 23:06

Maybe not betting all your money on a single horse, or in other words: diversification?
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Postby DutchDaemon » 12 Apr 2010, 23:18

You think Google has a few FreeBSD farms for diversification?
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Postby Oko » 13 Apr 2010, 00:11

DutchDaemon wrote:You think Google has a few FreeBSD farms for diversification?

Absolutely NOT! No U.S. company will deploy non-proprietary system without very, very good
reason. Whom are they going to sue if the things do not work as expected?

I bet that there no machine running FreeBSD at this point in Yahoo on U.S. soil. However some
of their overseas server farms might.

Unless somebody stands behind FreeBSD with a development and long term support (iX systems
are too small) the FreeBSD is as much academic/hobby system as any other BSDs.
Wanting to learn is so rare a merit that it should be encouraged.
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Postby rbelk » 13 Apr 2010, 02:09

Oko, how long have you been using FreeBSD? Yahoo has used it for a long time, check out http://bsdfreak.org/2008/12/11/the-fate-of-yahoo/, http://zer0.org/daemons/yahoobsd.html, and http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2005-February/078297.html. Yahoo has sponsered FreeBSD development and has donated a few things to the project also. Unfortunately, they have have not been as active in the last few years.
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Postby ckester » 13 Apr 2010, 02:16

Yahoo has been losing the battle against Google and its other competitors -- for reasons, it must be emphasized, that have nothing to do with FreeBSD.

I'm not sure Yahoo was ever a good advertisement for the power of BSD. Too many people think of Yahoo as a second-class operation.
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Postby Oko » 13 Apr 2010, 05:59

rbelk wrote:Oko, how long have you been using FreeBSD?

Actually, I have not touch a single FreeBSD box for more than three years. These days
I am using OpenBSD exclusively.
rbelk wrote:Yahoo has used it for a long time, check out http://bsdfreak.org/2008/12/11/the-fate-of-yahoo/, http://zer0.org/daemons/yahoobsd.html, and http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2005-February/078297.html. Yahoo has sponsered FreeBSD development and has donated a few things to the project also. Unfortunately, they have have not been as active in the last few years.


Read my post carefully. No U.S. company will deploy non-proprietary system without a very
good reason. The fact that JunoOS (Juniper OS) is almost 80% FreeBSD code doesn't change the fact that they claim that it is 100% proprietary OS developed from the scratch.


When Yahoo started Linux was a joke and Solaris was expensive. So they used FreeBSD. Did I tell you
dad M$ servers also used to run FreeBSD. Not any more. Today Linux is modern proprietary OS which you can get almost for free. It might not be the best thing after slice of bread but if something goes wrong you can always sue guys from RedHat. Did I tell you that in U.S. Linux=RedHat?

I hope you get the point.
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Postby darkshadow » 13 Apr 2010, 06:21

they can go to hell I will only use freebsd .... even if they are not , I will leave all the computer work for these jerk I will move to other part of the world like project management or I will complete studying German language , I get enough from non guilty software like Linux and stupid gnu , If freebsd or openbsd gone for any reason I will install windows and start gaming and first game I buy is kill linux
I dont mind if the girl I love, loves FreeBSD more than me.
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Postby darkshadow » 13 Apr 2010, 06:31

I dont mind if the girl I love, loves FreeBSD more than me.
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Postby vermaden » 13 Apr 2010, 06:54

Its pretty outdated ;)
On FreeBSD you will need:
FreeBSD 4.7 (recommended).
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Postby saxon3049 » 13 Apr 2010, 06:58

Those links are a little out of date aren't they, the first is from 2001 the other recommends freebsd 4.x.

It sucks that people are moving away from FreeBSD in a mass centralised environment such as data centres, for a whole host of reasons the main one I can see is that Linux is better at marketing and lots of technical people coming down the pipe have more experience with Linux than BSD we should as a community make more of a effort to publicise FreeBSD in the general media and to the general public.
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Postby DutchDaemon » 13 Apr 2010, 11:15

Oko wrote:I bet that there no machine running FreeBSD at this point in Yahoo on U.S. soil. However some of their overseas server farms might.


Well ... it's looking bleak ..

This is a full time position located in one of Santa Clara, CA; Burbank, CA; New York, NY; Bangalore, Karnataka, IN.
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Postby jb_fvwm2 » 13 Apr 2010, 14:06

A certain linux distro which has a comprehensive wiki
at its site, and an active forum, has the following
three documents readily available:
a 55k HTM file: networking setup (ifconfig, dhcp, rc.conf etc)
a 65k HTM file: installing the distro
a 220k HTM file: guide to usage (upgrading packages...)

Many persons asking questions here would benefit from
an equivalent documentation ( as an augment to articles
at onlamp.com and the handbook, for persons web-savvy but
not aware of either) as a source of pre-install information.

Just mentioning it as a possible future project for someone.
And as an observation.
Not enough expertise here.
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Postby ckester » 13 Apr 2010, 14:45

saxon3049 wrote:Those links are a little out of date aren't they, the first is from 2001 the other recommends freebsd 4.x.

It sucks that people are moving away from FreeBSD in a mass centralised environment such as data centres, for a whole host of reasons the main one I can see is that Linux is better at marketing and lots of technical people coming down the pipe have more experience with Linux than BSD we should as a community make more of a effort to publicise FreeBSD in the general media and to the general public.


Is popularity our main goal? This isn't Linux.

Let's try to think clearly here. What benefits do we expect to derive from increased use of FreeBSD by the general public or by companies like Yahoo? Do those benefits outweigh the costs?
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Postby imp@ » 13 Apr 2010, 15:41

Yahoo still has a very large FreeBSD server farm. Thousands of machines in the US right now, according to sources. Yahoo doesn't publish its numbers, as it considers that information proprietary.

Rumor's of FreeBSD's demise at Yahoo! are greatly exaggerated. Yahoo still employs many FreeBSD developers. They still contribute a lot of code back to FreeBSD and the FreeBSD project. They still provide a fair amount of rack space for the FreeBSD servers.

In any company as large as Yahoo! there will be pockets of many different kinds of systems. Companies that size also experiment from time to time with different technologies to ensure their current choice matches their business needs. I wouldn't make too much of any rumors in this area until Yahoo! makes definitive public statements.

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Postby overmind » 13 Apr 2010, 17:32

And let's not forget Micro$oft's Hotmail used FreeBSD (and might still use it).

Yahoo started using FreeBSD because they weren't able to install other Linux distribution at first. Now they know :)

We'll it is sad that this thing happens but I'm not worried, because FreeBSD have a lot of good stuff no other OS has it.
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Postby imp@ » 13 Apr 2010, 17:47

overmind wrote:And let's not forget Micro$oft's Hotmail used FreeBSD (and might still use it).

Hotmail has converted over to MS servers. It only took 4x as many than the FreeBSD servers they replaced... But that was several years ago.

overmind wrote:Yahoo started using FreeBSD because they weren't able to install other Linux distribution at first. Now they know :)

Well, not being able to install Linux wasn't the reason that FreeBSD was used at Yahoo! Yahoo! had some special needs that Linux just wasn't able to fullfil, but FreeBSD was able to. In the early days, Linux wasn't stable at all, especially under load. It didn't scale for beans, especially the network traffic layer. It just didn't work well in a commercial environment.

overmind wrote:We'll it is sad that this thing happens but I'm not worried, because FreeBSD have a lot of good stuff no other OS has it.


Well, nothing is finished yet. Yahoo! is explorting its options, and we'll see if the investments it has made in Linux work out or not.

The bottom line, however, is to remember that FreeBSD is still a very strong player at Yahoo! New systems are being deployed to meet demands. The Linux roll out and rumors have been going on for 3 or 4 years now. I don't see why this one position would change that.

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Postby SR_Ind » 13 Apr 2010, 17:56

Release engineering...

Release an ISO image containing pre-configured BSD licensed components...a HTTP server, RDBMS, plus add Mono / J2EE / PHP.

Remove dinosaurs like sendmail.

Do that and I can guarantee my developers will format their Red Hat crap overnight.

>>

We manage few FreeBSD boxes as network servers. I've to take time off from management and pre-sales activities to look after those boxes.

There will be change of guard and next generation of architects will consign FreeBSD to dustbin if it takes too much of their time.

Since, Linux and NT has encroached the IT infra in academia this is inevitable. Linux and NT families also ensures uniform and seamless experience between the desktop and servers. Curious kids will dig around command line...they do. Linux and NT ensure that they don't have to wrestle with another OS if they wish to see their girlfriends on webcam or wish to catch up with projects documentation.

Self professed experts in BSD world say that FreeBSD is only meant to be server. Frankly they have no idea of what they are saying and their attitude and disproportionate say in the issue is going to be the cause for gradual marginalization of BSDs.

BSDs will only exist for commercial interests to cannibalize and profit.
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Postby imp@ » 13 Apr 2010, 18:02

Oko wrote:Read my post carefully. No U.S. company will deploy non-proprietary system without a very
good reason. The fact that JunoOS (Juniper OS) is almost 80% FreeBSD code doesn't change the fact that they claim that it is 100% proprietary OS developed from the scratch.
I hope you get the point.


Interesting, but wrong.

Cisco systems has FreeBSD in the formerly IronPort products. Many of the Cisco BUs also have FreeBSD in various roles in the network.

Symmetricomm makes a number of systems for high precision time and frequency control, measurement and distribution that has FreeBSD under the hood.

Google has funded much FreeBSD research a Cambridge. Robert Watson will discuss sandboxing of Chrome on FreeBSD at BSDcan coming up in May.

Juniper deploys FreeBSD under the hood in JunOS. The bits they are claiming as proprietary are their secret sauce additions. Juniper is a big FreeBSD contributor. They have contributed a number of bug fixes into FreeBSD, as well a port to MIPS which is now the basis of FreeBSD/mips.

iX Systems does indeed offer support for FreeBSD and PC-BSD, in addition to their hardware services. [ disclaimer: I work for iX systems these days ]

NetApp's systems have FreeBSD under the hood as well. They have contributed many bug fixes in the network area, as well as improvements to FreeBSD's NFS stack.

Sandvine makes large FreeBSD storage boxes with a fairly stock FreeBSD. While Canadian, that doesn't lessen the fact they are using FreeBSD.

iX Systems has a number of clients that are deploying large FreeBSD machines to serve video and other network content. They have no problems using FreeBSD systems in their production network. In fact, I'm not allowed to mention who they are because they consider it a competitive advantage.

Cavium Networks and RMI have donated FreeBSD ports to their MIPS platforms, and are supporting efforts to integrate that support into FreeBSD. These are big network vendors that came to us looking to have their ports integrated because their customers were demanding FreeBSD on these platforms.

These are just a few that I can name off the top of my head that are located in the US.

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Postby phoenix » 13 Apr 2010, 18:25

And .... what's stopping you from creating that ISO? :D

All the tools needed for creating a custom install CD/DVD are included with FreeBSD. ;)

You can even make it all fit on a mini-CD, or a USB stick. There are even tools for creating an embeddable version of FreeBSD (tinyBSD, nanoBSD, picoBSD, etc).

The default installer is for the general use case. What you make of it after that is up to you.
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Postby ckester » 13 Apr 2010, 18:51

Interesting info, Warner. Thanks!

I think the fact that these companies are contributing code back to the project is the most significant answer to my question about what benefits we can expect from wider adoption.
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Postby SR_Ind » 13 Apr 2010, 18:55

phoenix wrote:And .... what's stopping you from creating that ISO? :D

All the tools needed for creating a custom install CD/DVD are included with FreeBSD. ;)


Precisely. And that's what do for my servers and my laptop (I'm posting from that). But, in a couple of years I'll move even higher up the food chain. :) Who'll do all this tinkering then?

What about next generation of techs pouring in from colleges? They have seen only NT or Linux. They use Novell SLES on servers and OpenSUSE on their laptops. Same OS and seamless experience. Same goes with Win 2003 + XP combo.

There is a maximization of the skills gained on one OS. Computers are no longer equipments hidden away in labs. They have encroached our living rooms. Linux and NT? Yep, the same OS skills that helps you set up a home theatre.

Some of our departments get freshers from non - computers branches. Can I ask them to master 2 or 3 OS's? They will put down their papers, I'll be hauled in to the HR cabin very next day. (I work with Siemens and we seem to be handling every type of engineering activity under the sun :) )

My point is present day operating systems need to have value proposition for somewhat wider audiences than it earlier it used to be.

And coming from industry, the trend I see is that operating system are becoming commodity. They should be readily usable be it servers, workstations, mobile devices or appliances.
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Postby rossiya » 13 Apr 2010, 19:55

Has everyone forgotten BSDi? That's the power behind F5 Networks and Macintosh OSX.

This speculation is really off target. FreeBSD would never die because were development to freeze today, endless code could still be grafted from other projects. And BSD code lives on in SunOS, Macintosh. Moreover FreeBSD is an amalgamation of GNU and other projects over the core. From a genetics view I'd say FreeBSD has spread it's seed far and wide.

If anything, there is a threat that linux and BSD code will cross-pollinate to the point of indistinguishability down the road.
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Postby rden » 15 Apr 2010, 13:45

rossiya wrote:If anything, there is a threat that linux and BSD code will cross-pollinate to the point of indistinguishability down the road.


It's always looked to move that way but like parallel lines never seem to meet.

The difference I see (and what made FreeBSD my choice) has always been the FreeBSD professional release control. With FreeBSD I know what I've got, where I got it from, and where the next release will come from. Linux distro is too messed up, heck even picking a single linux: ubuntu depends too often on "which ubuntu(is it kubuntu or ???) ... with which patches applied." - these patches sometimes coming out daily. (Same goes for redhat too).

None of the BSD'en are that messed up.
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Postby oliverh » 15 Apr 2010, 17:42

>None of the BSD'en are that messed up.

Maybe apart from *cough* DragonFlyBSD *cough* ;-)
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