Debian + FreeBSD 7.2 Kernel - Benchmarking Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD

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Debian + FreeBSD 7.2 Kernel - Benchmarking Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD

Postby Penel » 19 Jan 2010, 06:39

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=debian_kfreebsd&num=1

So I just finished reading this article and I dont know what to think.....

I could careless about Phoronixs Linux benchmarks, because we all know they are geared towards the Linux users hehe ;) However,

I dont understand why Debian is trying to re-create the wheel when they can just drop what they are doing and change their trade-name/distribution-name to "GOTO http://www.freebsd.org/ " LOL

I like Debian as a pure Linux distro, but this will be interesting too see how everything will play out :)
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Postby graudeejs » 19 Jan 2010, 07:08

One thing that pissed me off is
http://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD_why

kFreeBSD developers often have more interest in merging new features rather than spawning forks all along (the port to Xbox is a very good example. See the responses from Linus Torvalds and [red]kFreeBSD developers[/red]).


And link to FreeBSD mailinglist.... kFreeBSD developers have nothing to do with that AFAIK

Uhhh, those bastards


Also I think this post should be in Off Topic section ;)
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Postby GPF » 19 Jan 2010, 23:48

I concur, the wiki page that lists the reasons why someone would choose Debian kFreeBSD over FreeBSD is -to put lightly- a joke.

Let's wait and see what will happen, although I have my doubts if this idea is going to work out and attract a lot of users.
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Postby LateNiteTV » 20 Jan 2010, 16:33

lol the reasons to use kfreebsd as opposed to freebsd are ridiculous.
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Postby Daisuke_Aramaki » 20 Jan 2010, 16:51

LateNiteTV wrote:lol the reasons to use kfreebsd as opposed to freebsd are ridiculous.


Precisely. I was just about to say that. It looks like they simply had no clue how to rationalize the existence of kfreebsd crap on the first place. :e
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Postby sqlpython » 13 Feb 2011, 20:30

Hi people maybe I can shed some light on your confoundings (as in surprise & confusion)..
Please don't start a flame war over this observation/opinion as I am truely attempting to show the other side. :)
I am a 15 year Linux User/Developer and have used PCBSD for about 5 years... True I haven't installed FreeBSD since 1996... Currently, I have been investigating an install of GNU/kfreebsd 8.1 myself..
So, let me help by first getting all misgivings out of the way by saying..........
Linux is a Slow, Bloated, Unstable, BUG ridden, Inferior OS that will cause God himself to forsake you (if one is to use it.) I have it on good authority that God is a FreeBSD user.. :) ..maybe that will break the tension..

The reasons for creating and Using a GNU/kfreebsd are as follows:
1. It allows a uninitiated Users a Simpler install vehicle to a FreeBSD kernel.. (as PCBSD)
2. As there are multiple BSDs this is just another Choice to help Draw in BSD users.
3. As a Bridge those that are familiar with Linxu Working/File Structure can Learn BSD commands.
4. Most Users are stingy with time investment ..GNU/kfreebsd minimizes that....
5. A simple Linux GUI for additional Software sans Portage..
6. A deeper pool of Hardware Drivers..Again drawing in more New potiential BSD Users..
..........So it is all about Experimentation and New Users...........
It goes on but it is all about the New the unfamiliar Masses that would be the a thriving new BSD base..
The difference between the avg BSD user and the avg. Linux user is that the BSD user has to be willing and eventually able to take on manual configurations of all sorts..
So, please don't be offended. Be at least interested and perhaps this will wet the appetite of Users that will go on to become genuine BSD users..

P.S. I have been reading and searching these forums for many years but never had a need to post. I can only hope that this post is of some value.
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Postby graudeejs » 13 Feb 2011, 20:46

We need to take advantage of Debian/kFreeBSD in form of drivers :)
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Postby oliverh » 13 Feb 2011, 21:07

killasmurf86 wrote:We need to take advantage of Debian/kFreeBSD in form of drivers :)


Do you think it will be easier, just because it's ripped off FreeBSD kernel in a "GNU-environment"? Debian maintains a lot of projects, guess why they need a couple of years to get things done at all.
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Postby DutchDaemon » 13 Feb 2011, 21:19

In my opinion, PCBSD (KDE) and GhostBSD (Gnome, a forum user's project), and anything interfacing with the new bsdinstall (replacing sysinstall) is about as far as FreeBSD needs to move 'to draw in users'. FreeBSD has never been about gaining desktop user market share, really.
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Postby Pushrod » 13 Feb 2011, 22:19

sqlpython wrote: The difference between the avg BSD user and the avg. Linux user is that the BSD user has to be willing and eventually able to take on manual configurations of all sorts..


If that's true, then a few scripts or GUI tools in FreeBSD ports would achieve that goal.

Other than this very post, I have given Debian/kFreeBSD absolutely no thought or consideration, nor do I intend to.
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Postby sqlpython » 13 Feb 2011, 22:20

FreeBSD has never been about gaining desktop user market share, really.

I can respect that ......
However remember this FreeBSD like every other OS will forever lose particular Users every year. While these Users will never return it is Growth via Marketing/Interest that keeps FreeBSD from perishing.
The Growth generated/facilitated by Interest. In business you Grow or Perish..simple economics. A neutral Growth business Dies. So, Let all FreeBsd users bow their heads in thanks for the likes of PCBSD, GhostBSD or DesktopBSD as the the interest generated by those variations surely helped new users move on to swell your ranks...
Anyway as I have said I can understand your view point..
Different goals for Different folks
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Postby DutchDaemon » 13 Feb 2011, 22:41

I know that you are of the opinion that GNU/kFreeBSD would swell FreeBSD's ranks. I am not of that opinion at all. That the derivative FreeBSD versions would eventually move people to 'FreeBSD-proper' (for non-desktop applications, or for more personalized desktop environments ('roll your own' installations)) .. sure -- this is already happening when people want to break out of the confines of these derivatives. But I can't see any positive spin-off emanating from the Debian project. It looks rather self-serving to me.
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Postby Crivens » 13 Feb 2011, 23:04

Sorry mate, the posting started really good, but some of your points do not make much sense to me. Maybe it is me, but I can not take them seriously.

sqlpython wrote: The difference between the avg BSD user and the avg. Linux user is that the BSD user has to be willing and eventually able to take on manual configurations of all sorts..

As will the Linux user when he wants something from his system which $DISTRO has no support for. Like blacklisting some drivers for hardware and then telling the system again and again to not load them because the update mechanisms are often as smart as ... well, as dumb as it can get. That was one reason why I no longer use Linux.

I am sorry to say so, but I feel unable to comment on the other points witout being offended and/or offensive. This project looks more like "have solution, seek problem" to me. It could have the reasons you mention, but it could as well have other reasons. It will further fragment the Linux area and do the same to FreeBSD. Who would want that?
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Postby oliverh » 13 Feb 2011, 23:57

sqlpython wrote:I can respect that ......
However remember this FreeBSD like every other OS will forever lose particular Users every year. While these Users will never return it is Growth via Marketing/Interest that keeps FreeBSD from perishing.
The Growth generated/facilitated by Interest. In business you Grow or Perish..simple economics. A neutral Growth business Dies. So, Let all FreeBsd users bow their heads in thanks for the likes of PCBSD, GhostBSD or DesktopBSD as the the interest generated by those variations surely helped new users move on to swell your ranks...
Anyway as I have said I can understand your view point..
Different goals for Different folks


>However remember this FreeBSD like every other OS will forever lose particular Users every year.

Linux on the Desktop has got no relevance at all, forget about the hype. It's an Apple and Microsoft dominated world. However, it's quite a different story on servers. Linux dominates this market, but *BSD is going strong in different areas ... think of quality instead of quantity.
What was the goal of the Linux community--to replace Windows? One can imagine higher aspirations., Bill Joy
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Postby sqlpython » 14 Feb 2011, 03:29

OK, Keep in mind that I am not attempting to convince anyone. Just the way a user base works. So I will end it here.
Besides, Olly keeps getting edited and I don't want to be responsible for his health. :^)

Seriously, Simply know this as a User/Developer/Moderator I get to exchange thoughts with thousands of people per year on the subject of OSes and...............
Many find FreeBSD interesting and Compelling but lack the courage to take the leap.
Projects like PCBSD and even GNU/kfreebsd open a door to allow them an opportunity due to the simplicity of install to touch on a BSD like install..That's all.
And while purists may not like that some choose to cut their BSD teeth in that way they do. It is all about choices and no one is taking your choices away because of this fact.
So, relax and let it pass because as Other type newbie BSD users get less then the Welcome aboard here they will go elsewhere for better or worse. As they relay their experiences here you will be left to you needed/wanted common denominator of Users.
It will work out just fine...for you.
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Postby Pushrod » 14 Feb 2011, 07:02

Perhaps the users who are too afraid to try FreeBSD should seek some sort of counseling.
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Postby nakal » 14 Feb 2011, 07:28

Oh, people... don't be like that. Debian on FreeBSD kernel is a nice thing, in my opinion. This does not only prove that you can have a GNU system that is portable. It also shows that FreeBSD kernel is great in other scenarios.

When you think about it as a developer, to have some other kind of userland also a cheap way to test the stability and reliability. Second thing is... people are really interested in FreeBSD there. Third... you get cheap form of advertisement. Fourth... etc..

Look at the advantages! I would not use this, but it does not mean I should hate it.
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Postby Crivens » 14 Feb 2011, 13:57

Ok, after some sleep I think I should be more clear.
When this is used as a club to hang over anyone who adds linux-only parts to the Debian codebase, userland and apps - then this is a good thing (tm). That would mean I would support it, but that does not mean I would use it. But for that reason, I would support it.
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Postby oliverh » 14 Feb 2011, 15:14

sqlpython wrote:OK, Keep in mind that I am not attempting to convince anyone. Just the way a user base works. So I will end it here.
Besides, Olly keeps getting edited and I don't want to be responsible for his health. :^)

Seriously, Simply know this as a User/Developer/Moderator I get to exchange thoughts with thousands of people per year on the subject of OSes and...............
Many find FreeBSD interesting and Compelling but lack the courage to take the leap.
Projects like PCBSD and even GNU/kfreebsd open a door to allow them an opportunity due to the simplicity of install to touch on a BSD like install..That's all.
And while purists may not like that some choose to cut their BSD teeth in that way they do. It is all about choices and no one is taking your choices away because of this fact.
So, relax and let it pass because as Other type newbie BSD users get less then the Welcome aboard here they will go elsewhere for better or worse. As they relay their experiences here you will be left to you needed/wanted common denominator of Users.
It will work out just fine...for you.


Yeah the same old song "it's too hard". Most people nowadays are thinking Debian is too hard, too old, too $excuse and they're using Ubuntu instead - even on servers. So maybe BSD is dying - a nice running gag by the way - but maybe Debian is dying too. Finally, who cares? BSD today is mostly for people fed up with Linux.
What was the goal of the Linux community--to replace Windows? One can imagine higher aspirations., Bill Joy
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Postby sqlpython » 14 Feb 2011, 16:13

Nakal, Crivens, Oliverh, Dutchd, killasmurf*
I was going to make the my last post my final on the thread but.........
I just wanted to state that we are now all roughly on the same page..
Let the other variates have their choices it really doesn't effect the FreeBSD Project.
Redirect non pertinent FreeBSD inquiries to Docs or back to their Source Project. Voila..
So maybe BSD is dying

LOL.. not in my life time!
Finally, who cares? BSD today is mostly for people fed up with Linux.

Spot on... and for some not so much fed up but needing more refinement/quality in their OS..

Let me say in closing this is not the FreeBSD user group of 15 years ago.. 15 years ago I would have been tarred and feathered and sent out of town tied to a rail for this subject..LOL
Today it is obvious clearer heads prevail on the Project..
Thanks for the exchange.
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Postby sossego » 14 Feb 2011, 16:53

Debian/kFreeBSD is a project that should be separated from both Linux and FreeBSD.

It is not a system for the beginning user.

Is there any positive use that can be gained from this?
Yes. More programs. Native over compat. Xorg for Debian and Xorg for native if there are two cards.
Visually impaired users can use ADRIANE and emacspeak.

Any reason why it shouldn't be used?
Ye Olde Lycense Lourds are not happy with the project.
Maintenance is not easy. The user is running two systems, not one.
No UFS2 support. There is no FreeBSD default security options. There is no Linux kernel support for security. There is no community forum dedicated to the project.

Does removing drivers from the kernel source help? Nope.
Someone can just rebuild from source.


Any operating system can be used on the Desktop providing that the proper applications and configurations are available.
Any operating system can be used as a server providing the proper setup and applications are available.


This is the official FreeBSD forum site.


There's a lot that the Debian/kFreeBSD project can accomplish.


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Postby phoenix » 14 Feb 2011, 19:03

killasmurf86 wrote:We need to take advantage of Debian/kFreeBSD in form of drivers :)


FreeBSD kernel is FreeBSD kernel is FreeBSD kernel. Meaning that the drivers are the same regardless of what you put on top. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is not going to magically add new drivers, since it's still the same FreeBSD kernel as we (normal FreeBSD users) use.
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Postby jrm » 14 Feb 2011, 19:53

sqlpython wrote:I have it on good authority that God is a FreeBSD user


That would make an awesome signature/T-shirt.
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Postby kpedersen » 15 Feb 2011, 14:48

I believe Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD to be detrimental to the FreeBSD project because instead of bright people working solely on FreeBSD, their hard work is now going to be spread between the two projects.

You can see this happening in linux and one of the most beneficial points of FreeBSD is everything is developed in one place (one tree). Because Debian's kFreeBSD is not developed in one place I don't feel it should even be allowed to use FreeBSD in it's name.
Debian GNU/BSD sounds a little contradicting but is "most correct"
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Postby graudeejs » 15 Feb 2011, 15:39

phoenix wrote:FreeBSD kernel is FreeBSD kernel is FreeBSD kernel. Meaning that the drivers are the same regardless of what you put on top. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is not going to magically add new drivers, since it's still the same FreeBSD kernel as we (normal FreeBSD users) use.


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