What do you think about OpenZFS's new CoC?

The sad thing is, these SJW types usually only have the power you give them. They can't shame us for ignoring women (Grace Hopper, I salute you), gays (hi Mr. Touring, fancy a pint?) trans (Sophie Wilson, another great mind) or autistic people (half the rest of us lot). How did they make these inroads into CS?

When they tried to enter the field of Heavy Metal crying about homophobia, they were informed that one of the biggest metal heads alive was gayer than a bag of scittles and they could sod off. Or is it the genetic memory telling them not to tick off people wearing black leather. Or why do PETA activists fail to throw dye bombs at bikers?

We may be victim of tolerance, we allow everyone to try their ideas at least once - and then we can't get rid of them again.
 
Too long, don't want to read.

People are still jerks.
Often it's legal reasons.
Crivens has the best username on the forums.




No need, because all is well? A look at today's Guardian headlines.

Military sexual assaults jump by 37%, anonymous survey shows


Officer punched Oscar Grant and lied about facts in 2009 killing, records show
(White cop, black alleged criminal)

At the Heart of Gold: how 'predatory' institutions protected Larry Nassar

(That's the gymnastics coach who allegedly sexually assaulted lots of female gymnasts and got away with it.)

Crivens you have the best name on the forum (if others don't know why, stop what you're doing and read Terry Pratchett), but in this case, I have to disagree. The problem is that people are jerks, and also, as I said in one post here, it's often necessary for legal reasons. I remember seeing a man who was obviously handicapped being slow to cross a street and people started honking. It's one reason I kept using a cane after surgery because I couldn't (and still can't) run, and I was worried about people being jerks when I walked slowly.

And there are the rules and regulations. We recently wanted to get a cert so underwent a compliance audit, and there were all sorts of policies that had to state various things for us to comply.
 
I have to add, while I said above that people are jerks, they are also amazingly wonderful. As I've mentioned, I had surgery and am now somewhat handicapped. (Can't run, can't pick up heavy things, etc.) People, even in Manhattan, have been incredibly nice. I remember, when I was still walking with a cane, dropping something on the street and several strangers just rushing to help. So it's not that I think all people are jerks, just, (as someone else said in this thread) it only takes one.
 
scottro said:
Too long, don't want to read.
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Yepp, thats quite typical for the SJW supporters - they just dont want to read what might prove them wrong.

Military sexual assaults jump by 37%, anonymous survey shows
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Uh? Which country?

Officer punched Oscar Grant and lied about facts in 2009 killing, records show
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Uh? Who's that? Which country?

At the Heart of Gold: how 'predatory' institutions protected Larry Nassar
(That's the gymnastics coach who allegedly sexually assaulted lots of female gymnasts and got away with it.)
Click to expand...

Never heard of. Which country is that?


I might assume that the country in question might be north America - as these are AFAIK the only people who tend to take it for granted that their problems ought to be a concern for all the rest of the worlds. Which is, in fact, a serious case of machismo.

So we probably have it: the main resaon for the CoC stuff is in the minds of those who propagate it: they need (as Anthony Linebarger aka Cordwainer Smith put it) a means to protect them from themselves.
 
North America is a continent and not a country name. Canada, Mexico, and United States of America are country names. A lot of United States citizens do indeed have the ego problem just cited, so I assume you are talking about US, but as a US citizen I'd like to think that I don't suffer from such conceits. Not all United Statesians think alike, nor are all proponents of social justice overly-sensitive keyboard commandos. d-:
 
Vull said:
North America is a continent and not a country name.
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Yes. certainly. So, please, have me corrected and lets put it "a country in north America". I'm not absolutely certain but I might assume Mexico is already counted to central America? So there would be only two countries in question.
And You are also absolutely right, this attitude should not be generalized; and there are also many great achievements which put the US into a leading role quite naturally, not the least the Internet.

Nevertheless, I think it is a valid question to ask, what might such CoC mean to the people in India, in China, in Russia - perceived thru the glasses of their cultural backgrounds? IT in itself builds quite a lot on mathematics, which is an universal language, but behaviour rules are always culturally biased.
 
PMc said:
Yes. certainly. So, please, have me corrected and lets put it "a country in north America". I'm not absolutely certain but I might assume Mexico is already counted to central America? So there would be only two countries in question.
And You are also absolutely right, this attitude should not be generalized; and there are also many great achievements which put the US into a leading role quite naturally, not the least the Internet.

Nevertheless, I think it is a valid question to ask, what might such CoC mean to the people in India, in China, in Russia - perceived thru the glasses of their cultural backgrounds? IT in itself builds quite a lot on mathematics, which is an universal language, but behaviour rules are always culturally biased.
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North America contains 23 sovereign states according to wikipedia, including Mexico. That's the main reason why I refrain from refering to the US as America, as many people do, both here and abroad. It really is a big ego problem and I have to concede that.

Regarding the CoC question, I haven't read the CoC, and don't intend to read it, so I can't really respond very well to the question, but I can certainly understand and appreciate why Indians, Chinese, Russians, and many other nationalities might take umbrage at having their own cultural values ignored or casually dismissed.
 
Sorry, it was the US, should have mentioned that. As for the rest of it. I will probably never meet you and rather than argue here, where no one's mind will be changed, I'm going back to argue with my wife about why I should be allowed to eat sweets after 8:00.

Actually, seeing all this, I have to elaborate. Questions each of us should ask ourselves. I'm assuming the ones getting down on SJW's are straight white men.

So, you are deciding to hire a coder. You have a white one and a black one, both equally good. How are you going to decide.
Same, but male and female.
Of course you can answer, they are never equally good, but just look at your own prejudices.

Extra credit. Your girlfriend works at a company where a really talented individual routinely calls her and other female colleagues c**ts. I'll assume you can figure it out, it's slang for female primary sexual characteristics. But, don't forget they're really talented. Does your girlfriend have a right to complain or is she just being thin skinned. What if it's not a company, but a group of open source coders.

As for the earlier question what country. The more I think of it, the more silly that question is. Do you really think that any country is exempt from corrupt, prejudiced police or assault in a co-ed military? Seriously? What country. Check the rape statistics for your country here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

If the idea was simply to weaken my argument by finding something irrelevant to the original topic to criticize, it might have worked as I see a few posts under it. But yeah, I should have said the US, and neglected too, sorry, but which country it is seems less important to me than the point, which was that while people are saying this is alright, it's not alright, and I doubt there are very many places in the world where it is alright.

I simply grabbed a quickly available headline but if you think it isn't a problem in your country, think again. Unless it's one of those, not uncommon places, where you can't rape a spouse or where the victim can go to jail, and so on.

There's a good story, no idea if it's true. In Israel, rape was such a problem that the lawmakers were considering having a curfew for women. Golda Meir, prime minister at the time said, Well, it's a good idea but backwards. Men are committing the rapes, let's have a curfew for men.

And if anyone is wondering, I'm a straight white elderly married male.
 
scottro said:
So, you are deciding to hire a coder. You have a white one and a black one, both equally good. How are you going to decide.
Same, but male and female.
Of course you can answer, they are never equally good, but just look at your own prejudices.
Click to expand...

You never had the idea that for other people (or, some of them) this could be so completely irrelevant, and the only one speaking to them about prejudices being You?

Extra credit. Your girlfriend works at a company where a really talented individual routinely calls her and other female colleagues c**ts. I'll assume you can figure it out, it's slang for female primary sexual characteristics. But, don't forget they're really talented. Does your girlfriend have a right to complain or is she just being thin skinned. What if it's not a company, but a group of open source coders.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be by girlfriend if she wouldn't be able to handle such in a way that it is terminated, and rather quickly so.

As for the earlier question what country. The more I think of it, the more silly that question is. Do you really think that any country is exempt from corrupt, prejudiced police
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No, but there are lots of countries where nobody would complain about such because it is and was always the normal thing. There's also a lot of countries where a life doesn't count so much, and where people wouldn't get the idea of complaining about being offended, because they have a lot more serious problems to cope with.

If the idea was simply to weaken my argument by finding something irrelevant to the original topic to criticize, it might have worked as I see a few posts under it. But yeah, I should have said the US, and neglected too, sorry, but which country it is seems less important to me than the point, which was that while people are saying this is alright, it's not alright, and I doubt there are very many places in the world where it is alright.
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No, that was not the point. I think it is basically wrong to declare oneself the protector of other people's needs. And you can apply this in the same way to the proponents of CoC as to the US foreign policy: in both cases it rarely does something good and often does create additional trouble.
People must learn to stand up for their own needs, instead of being told by others what their needs ought to be.

I simply grabbed a quickly available headline but if you think it isn't a problem in your country, think again. Unless it's one of those, not uncommon places, where you can't rape a spouse or where the victim can go to jail, and so on.
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Good point. Now, do You indeed think You would change anything about these things by writing a CoC for some ZFS or whatever? Those victims have probably never heard of ZFS.
Or do You think You can change anything to the better by insinuating arbitrary people prejudices (like You did above)? You may just offend these people, wo might already on their own have put a great deal of thoughts into the matter.

Maybe -an assumption- You just see the many things that go wrong in our world, and feel the need that something should be done about it. I was once at that point - but then I found that any attempt to regulate things would take away other peoples responsibility for themselves, and would only create a new structure of power-over-others. (That does certainly not mean to not stand in when somebody calls for help. It means regulations that are anonymously imposed upon people.)
Most of us already have an inner feeling about what is right and what is wrong, it's called ethics - so we don't need anybody else imposing their ethics upon us. What we do need instead is the experience that it actually pays off to follow one's ethics - because often it does not, 'cause the world is quite corrupt.
 
PMc said:
So we probably have it: the main resaon for the CoC stuff is in the minds of those who propagate it: they need (as Anthony Linebarger aka Cordwainer Smith put it) a means to protect them from themselves.
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with that. It is the in-your-face attitude that gets in the way. If you need rules to protect yourself from yourself, keep them to yourself. But don't project your own faults onto others and don't bring others down to uplift yourself. It does not work in the long run.

Edit: I want to make it clear this is not meant to apply to PMc, but everybody.
 
Well, US foreign policy is a very interesting topic. As is racial and gender discrimination. But one does wonder whether these topics are a little bit too "off" for off-topic. Sadly, the CoC of an important component of FreeBSD is probably not too off-topic, and it would be valuable to discuss it. Except we haven't been discussing it, instead we have been putting gasoline into the ant-hill.

I think our moderators should ... rest and have a beer, they deserve it. They could have the beer before, after, or instead of closing this thread. Their choice.
 
So someone mentioned beer? ;)

Does anyone have any last comments on things? Yes, let's get back to the ZFS CoC and discuss things.
 
there are more important things to get solved and maybe will not get solved just because the implementation of freebsd CoC and now de OpenZFS CoC . I miss the old days when developers care about the important stuff.

this whole trend of stupid politcal Correcness into tech projects in general is just enviting the remaining loyal users of the project to leave even faster.
 
Well, the CoC itself is a very simple matter: it shows that the project is in such abundance of contributors that they need to focus on weeding them. Which means, one is not utterly needed at that place, and is free to focus on more imminent tasks. [1]
There is no need to go to a place where others are trying to put conditions upon one (no matter of what kind these conditions are).

Every man and every woman is a star.
Case dismissed.



[1] Footnote: I had this once, already. In my effort to spend my life as a hippie, back in '92 it had come to pass that I worked with a citizen's initiative to create internet access for the interested public. Then that initiative was overrun by leftists who decided that the proper political viewpoint would be more important than anything else. I had my time to learn, and finally managed to change my viewpoint: instead of creating internet access for the interested public for no pay, I then created internet access for some of the biggest corporations, for rather good pay.
 
One consistent thing i've noticed with respect to these various codes of conduct is that geeks/hackers/etc. tend to dismiss them as "silly", "wacky","leftist", "too politically correct". I think the situation is much more serious than this. CoCs are an attempt to expell anyone who's not "ideologically pure" from the free software community. And he who controls the software, increasingly, controls the world. The person behind Linux's CoC explicitly said it was political in nature. And yes, it doesn't yet have "teeth" - it's just a list of rules rather than a law. But I would stake money on the conjecture that these people would make it legally enforceable in a heartbeat if given the chance.
It seems that three forces are fighting for the soul of the western world; ultra-liberalism, radical Islam and the far right - and I find all three quite disturbing.
 
AlexanderProphet said:
an attempt to expell anyone who's not "ideologically pure" from the free software community.
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A few years ago when I was looking to switch jobs I found a devops position that read like a good fit. The position required filling out a survey, wherein half the questions were asking my level of agreement / disagreement that "diversity is our strength" and various other liberal phrases. I answered honestly (no, diversity alone isn't "our strength," and yes, competence and skill are more important than racial and gender quotas) and never got a response from the employer.

It's pernicious.

There used to be a time when that company would have been hit by a million lawsuits, and both sides of politics would have denounced the company. Not any more.
 
linux->bsd said:
I answered honestly (no, diversity alone isn't "our strength," and yes, competence and skill are more important than racial and gender quotas) and never got a response from the employer.

It's pernicious.

There used to be a time when that company would have been hit by a million lawsuits, and both sides of politics would have denounced the company. Not any more.
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I can't enter my chatbots in the Leobner Prize because they're internet based:

What is the Loebner Prize?
The Loebner Prize is an international contest run by the AISB (The Society for the Study of Artificial Intelligence and the Simulation of Behaviour) where chatbots compete with each other to find the most humanlike. This is an incredibly difficult challenge, as recreating human conversation is such a complex task and instead of being an assistant or having a goal, human conversation covers a vast multitude of topics.
Click to expand...

However, this year they eased up on the rules. Somewhat:

...the Loebner Prize has dramatically changed since Hugh's death and is now part of a larger event where pretty much anything AI related goes. So all you guys working on robots or non conversational AI can take part in the event. The main prize is still for a conversational AI but at least now other aspects of AI and robotics can be featured.
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They can be thankful I am not a Social Justice Warrior, victim status has no appeal to me and would rather argue my case vigorously than whine about it endlessly.

Because if I was, this would be the kind of thing I would be all over in a heartbeat. I know exactly how I would present it with bigotry my point and logic my tool to win my case in the Crybaby Court of Public Opinion. Even if it didn't get my bots in they would never shake the shameful image of Bigotry I would lay on them.

If I was a Social Justice Warrior, "Diversity our strength" my war whine and had been born with an overwhelming sense of entitlement where critical thought was supposed to go.

But that's not how I work and wouldn't enter my bots anyway. Demonica is not human-like and Siseneg not ready. Drama for the sake of drama too draining on me.

Instead I take solace knowing my Toxic Masculinity is still intact and the fact people who did participate have long stopped posting transcripts of their bots conversations once they saw mine in the forums.

I know some of the people who placed well and don't begrudge them or make issue of it. I have their respect for my work and achieved Dr. Frankenstein status among the community, which is more than I could ask for and better than any prize they hand out in a contest.
 
tommiie said:
What is so bad about defining some ground rules so everyone plays together nicely?
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This:

Danish FreeBSD Developer hates jews collectively

lists.freebsd.org
A person who is not manly enough to put his name on an accusation doesn't deserve the time of day.

Really. whatever someone believes is thier own opinion.
We are still allowed to have opinions right?
How did this affect FreeBSD whatsoever?
Some anonymous Social Justice Warrior just makes accusations and now phk is being investigated?

Keep this up and we will have no more FreeBSD.......
 
Too be fair, PHK definitely isn't immune to holding silly opinions.

Phishfry said:
phk is being investigated?
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CoCs typically do not come with any promise of fair and transparent enforcement. There will be no reaction at all, unless there is some kind of a wide scale outrage campaign on twitter or smth.

Oh, and that email isn't a formal complaint anyway.
 
This was attributed to Cardinal Richeleu: Give me six lines written by the most honest of men, and I'll find something in it to have him hanged.
 
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