we should support opera

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chalbersma

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hermit said:
well...[font="Comic Sans MS"]OPERA[/font] ROCKS!
ah...and it's better than fireshit...
:e

Fireshit build instructions.

Burrito + Super Hot Sauce + Ext. Jalapeños + 8 Hours = Fireshit
 

DutchDaemon

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Ok, any further points on the subject of 'supporting Opera'. If not, let's leave it here.
 
D

Deleted member 9563

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It's funny that when I mentioned "pretty standard" I was referring to look and feel. To me all the big browsers are pretty standard. They all look the same, use the same kind of layout and keystrokes out of the box. Perhaps I should have chosen a more telling word like "common" or "pedestrian". :)

Regarding W3C I certainly agree that it is something to aim at and ignore the web authors who eschew it. W3C compliance is indeed a good reason to use Opera.

Edit: Sorry DD. Your post came in while I was writing. :)
 

DutchDaemon

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Not specifically you, or anyone. Just don't want a pointless browser war with matching lingo in here.

So if the 'case for Opera' is now complete, we'll just move on and use and support whatever we like.
 
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darkshadow

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DutchDaemon said:
Not specifically you, or anyone. Just don't want a pointless browser war with matching lingo in here.

So if the 'case for Opera' is now complete, we'll just move on and use and support whatever we like.
did I do somthing wrong im just try to share somthing with other ?!
 
D

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Read his post. He said "or anyone". :) Several of us got something out of the discussion.
 

Eponasoft

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fonz said:
True.

Nevertheless, he raises an interesting point. If you have a very dominant position, you can try to "bend" standards and use your market share to move web designers towards your "standard" rather than the real one.

We've seen this in the past when the Microsoft-Netscape war was at its high (I'm talking about the mid to late '90s when the Internet Explorer was at version 3, 4 or maybe 5 and Netscape was at version 3 or 4). Both browsers suported several unique tags (remember Microsoft's <MARQUEE> monstrosity?) that were not part of any standard and if you as a webmaster wanted to build a site that looked good in both browsers, you had to go through quite a bit of trouble.

And even today, when HTML/CSS is highly standardized, many (less educated?) webdesigners seem to have a "it works with the latest MSIE so it's good" philosophy.

Odd thing is that although Opera is said to be one of the most standard-compliant browsers, several sites don't work (well) with it. I'd like to chalk that one up to poor webdesign (and/or application programming, as the case may be), but that means there are a lot of bad webdesigners out there.

Alphons
This post is made of pure win.

The sad fact is that it's really the web designers that are destroying the very industry they're purported to be working in. Very few web designers today follow the W3C standards and craft sites that explicitly target one or two browsers. This was a very common trend back in the late 90s and we've seen a resurgence of it in the last couple of years. Those standards exist for a reason! But try this...take just about every website you visit on a regular basis and run it through the W3C validator (not a forum though, they are more often than not standards compliant). A large number of them will fail. For example:

http://www.facebook.com: 39 errors
http://www.tagged.com: 16 errors, 11 warnings
http://www.freebsd.org: 1 error
http://www.google.com: 42 errors, 2 warnings
http://www.yahoo.com: 139 errors, 30 warnings
http://www.myspace.com: 63 errors, 20 warnings
http://www.twitter.com: 64 errors
http://www.getfirefox.com: 1 error, 1 warning
http://www.mozilla.com: 0 errors, 2 warnings
http://www.youtube.com: 136 errors, 45 warnings
http://www.microsoft.com: 365 errors, 34 warnings
http://www.wikipedia.org: 3 errors, 2 warnings
http://www.amazon.com: 1262 errors, 87 warnings
http://www.ebay.com: 216 errors
http://www.rapidshare.com: 78 errors, 17 warnings
http://www.flickr.com: 37 errors, 9 warnings
http://www.craigslist.org: 1 error, 1 warning
http://www.aol.com: 987 errors, 501 warnings
http://www.linkedin.com: 28 errors, 13 warnings

Out of all the sites I tested, only linux.org and wordpress.com passed validation. And all of these sites are either among the most popular in the world, or the most relevant to us here on this forum. Pretty sad, isn't it?

This is exactly why browsers like Opera, which insist on following the standards, fail to work on many of these sites. And most of these sites are extremely well-funded and developed by top web designers. There is no excuse, but there is an explanation...LAZINESS.

I installed Opera on the FreeBSD 8.0 system that I have running inside of VirtualBox. I installed as a package; I usually do this as building from source tends to take too long (though I did spend 7 hours building Xorg from source by building each of its parts individually...the horror) so I didn't know it had no source code...and frankly, don't really care either. I'm not really a fan of the interface, but I wasn't a fan of Firefox's at first either...making the transition from IE to Firefox was rather annoying, but necessary. But I will say that Firefox has indeed become out of control as of late. Even my build here, which is the older 3.0.x line, takes up too many resources, takes a long time to start up, and then, quite often, won't shut down...KDE pops up a dialog telling me that it's unresponsive and wants to know if I should shut it down forcefully. And the only add-ons I have are FireFTP and Download Statusbar.
 

Purple_Q

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This is exactly why browsers like Opera, which insist on following the standards, fail to work on many of these sites.

I might ask what is wrong with your setup. I've never come across a site that doesn't work just fine yet. In fact, in terms of errors or malrenderings (yeah I made that word up, I think), the only thing i've ever had go at all "wrong" would be ebay pages. They display fine, except I find that after the item description and etc, there is a fair bit of white space between that and the bottom section (the portion of the page where the counter usually sits, and where the ticker for the seller's other items is).

Accept my apologies if I misunderstood the context of the above quote, but the words "fail to work" are absolutely incorrect as far as I can tell. I've been using this browser a real long time, never come across anything that "doesn't work".
--Q
 

Eponasoft

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When I say "fail to work", I mean "fail to work as the designer intended". Many sites, not just the ones above, do not display correctly in Opera. This is NOT Opera's fault. This is the fault of the designers of these sites. However, if all you use is Opera, then you may end up failing to see how the sites are actually designed to be seen. Sure they'll work, but the WWW is largely a visual medium, and things just don't look right in Opera some of the time because the web designers are...well, I'll come right out and say it...stupid.
 
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darkshadow

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svg

sad truth opera start latly to handle this non standard issue (they still standard complimiant as it fully handle most of w3c standard) ,, for performance just try svg on opera and other browser like firefox and see how it work " if svg was implement before maybe flash would never appear example " http://www.codedread.com/solitaire.php
by the way svg is w3c standard unlike flash and it had open specification
 

mickey

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As far as I know, Chrome is currently only available for Win, Mac and Linux. So why bother?
 

jjthomas

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I just use what works. Campaigns to support this and that tend to be out of my hearing range. I think years of deafening spam have affected my hearing.
 

vivek

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What's wrong with lynx ;) better use telnet client and talk to protocol directly :e

Seriously, never had any issue with firefox. I've like 5 addons running. But than again I've 8GB RAM :p
 

Alt

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I dont like opera =) It have completely weird caching algorythm - its something between firefox's and ie6's algorithm so its not totally crap and not standard-compliant. Its between..
 
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darkshadow

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Alt said:
I dont like opera =) It have completely weird caching algorythm - its something between firefox's and ie6's algorithm so its not totally crap and not standard-compliant. Its between..
it just your opinion if you have any reference I will be happy , by the way what I will benefit from supporting opera im not a spamer if I would I will sell micorsoft software (.net application ) I would not even post in open source forum
 

Alt

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As a web developer i put opera near ie6. For example. It does not have really good css hacks. If you push ctrl-f5/ctrl-r in firefox, chrome, ie - they will reload ALL files for current html page, using If-Modified-Since HTTP 1.1 header. Even IE7+ do what i want when ask to reload page. Opera does what it wants this case (try to predict file modified or not). But sometimes it uses this option. Sometimes. As IE6.
 
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darkshadow

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Alt said:
As a web developer i put opera near ie6. For example. It does not have really good css hacks. If you push ctrl-f5/ctrl-r in firefox, chrome, ie - they will reload ALL files for current html page, using If-Modified-Since HTTP 1.1 header. Even IE7+ do what i want when ask to reload page. Opera does what it wants this case (try to predict file modified or not). But sometimes it uses this option. Sometimes. As IE6.

hacks !!!!!!!!! is not standard
and im web developer too and I never had this proplem except with ie6 and im sure that there is way to refresh page (without cache ) in opera but if you have not will configared web server you will have proplem with caching even with recent browser and maybe case opera is standard complement it obey the wrong configured web server and didnt try to fetch the new(image , or css)
 

Alt

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Web server answers ok with last-modified w/o any cache forcing. Actually these files is static and server answer is ok. She(opera) just look last-modified its far ago and thinks they will not change when i push f5. I dunno about your web developing, what i belive its my experience. Hacks? When opera show some thing not by w3c standard, there must be a way to fix it. Its hacks. Try to do html+css cross-brower block layout and you will learn about hacks..
 

graudeejs

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I was writing homepage for my project....
And I must admit, that opera can suck sometimes with it's stupid image cache.

I've edited imaged, save it, and then hit f5 in opera, nothing changes I hit Ctrl+R, nothing changes, I delete all cache, hit f5, and again, it's same old image I see in page

The only way I found to work was completely close opera and reopen my page.
 

vermaden

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killasmurf86 said:
The only way I found to work was completely close opera and reopen my page.

Strange, CTRL+R always seem to work for me, you can also change preferences to check images/document changes every time (instead of per several hours/days), also for day to day browsing this saves a lot of time/bandwidth.
 

fonz

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killasmurf86 said:
And I must admit, that opera can suck sometimes with it's stupid image cache.
Preferences -> Advanced -> History
Also try right-click -> reload image.

Although I do get the impression that these only work properly when an actual server is involved (apparently Opera can query a server for last modification times, but cannot lookup a local file's last modified time(!)). When viewing local files, treat as "all else fails" (see below).
killasmurf86 said:
The only way I found to work was completely close opera and reopen my page.
Even if all else fails, opening the image and reloading it should always work.

Alphons (not trying to sell you on Opera, use whatever you want)
 
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