Typesetting with FreeBSD

What do you use to write letters? To write articles, etc?

The UNIX program was from the beginning troff. Does someone use it?
troff has the advantage that it is always there.

I use (plain) TeX. Do someone use a variant of TeX? How do you install and update it? With Texlive Bomb-Package?

This time, I had a little more work for updating, compiling the programs after updates.

But I also installed a basic version with the Texlive installer, with TeX and latex: 273MB.
It has now a package manager to install more TeX related packages.

No compilation, I do not know if the binaries are reliable. In any case bloated, but not a GigaBomb.
Perhaps not bad for a freebsd package ...
 
I'm not quite clear on what you are asking, but yes binaries are safe. TeX, LayTex, and texlive are all available. You will have to ignore some "text" matches but a simple

pkg search tex|more

will show you all the binary packages available. I expect, if you want to compile from ports yourself, there may be more packages available.
 
I'm not quite clear on what you are asking, ...

to compile from ports yourself, there may be more packages available.

No!!! I want less than the bomb, but more than the unusable package pieces.

And I do not want to compile, although do it due to lack of packages.

You mean binaries for "FreeBSD" downloaded from ctan are OK?
 
I'm not a Tex person so I'm not really familiar with ctan, from what I can see it's a repository for scripts or resources used by Tex.

I'm not addressing things like that but instead the actual Tex, LaTex, and textalive applications.
Most things are available via binary packages via the pkg system that is part of FreeBSD.

See the handbook from information about packages. In general you should add applications to FreeBSD via the binary package system. If you have extraordinary needs you can look into the ports system - but in most cases that's not needed.
 
What do you use to write letters?
Off the shelf word processors. For example MS Word, or Google Docs. Google Docs has the advantage that it doesn't require any software to be installed, since it runs completely in the browser. It also happens to be free and requires no license. I think MS Word today has a mode where you can do all the editing in a browser too (it may be the "Word 365" version), but I'm not perfectly sure about that, since I have a licensed version installed on my Mac.

To write articles, etc?
Ah, this is where it gets interesting. Scientific papers (for submission to conferences or journals): Until about 15 years ago, I used LaTeX for that. I have not used plain TeX (instead of LaTeX) since the first drafts of my master's thesis, in 1986; the moment LaTeX became widely supported, plain TeX fell completely by the wayside, not only for me, but also in my scientific community. By the way, my master's thesis in 1986 was the last time I wrote a scientific paper that required cutting and pasting the graphs (diagrams) using scissors and rubber cement; since then, all my documents have been done with the graphs included digitally.

Then an interesting transition happened. I can explain when it happened by a real-world example: In 1995, I was the technical editor of a very large scientific paper, a 500-page document that had over 500 authors (and was published as a technical report, in the style of the physics community). It took me about half a year of my professional life to shepherd it through the production process, from collecting little snippets of text and graphs/diagrams from various authors, to camera-ready copy run from a phototypesetter at a large government printing office. This was all done in LaTeX, because the scientists in the community thought it would be the only tool powerful enough to handle it. Ultimately, LaTeX couldn't do it (on the computers available at the time, which was a high-end multiprocessor IBM RISC server running a Unix variant), and we had to do the final dvips run about 100 pages at a time. One member of our team was a publications professional (a technical editor at our publications department), and she was editing another very large paper at the same time, a document of about 900 pages. She did that one completely in MS Word on a Windows machine. It worked about as well as LaTeX: not perfectly, but well enough.

In the last ~25 years, I have worked in computer science research labs (such as HP and IBM labs). Even in those places where everyone is a Unix bigot, the common tool for writing research papers and journal publications has moved from 100% LaTeX to about 80% Word+Docs, about 20% LaTeX holdouts. And that includes theoretical computer scientists and mathematicians.

So my personal advice would be: Use MS Word or Google Docs. By the way, if you need formulas: Both Word and Docs have a "LaTeX compatibility mode" for math. It works excellently, but their native math typesetting handles most stuff pretty well.

The UNIX program was from the beginning troff. Does someone use it?
About 20 years ago, when I started working at IBM, there were still a handful of people using troff. Those were curmudgeons. And a larger handful of people using IBM's internal tool (which is based on SGML, a predecessor / relative of HTML). And a few using FrameMaker. I have not heard of anyone using *roff for anything other than man pages in a decade or two.

How do you install and update it?
To be honest: In the last 20+ years I have not had to install (La-) TeX myself. I know it is exceedingly difficult. I rely on professional sys admins at work for that, as this is not amateur something for amateur hour.

My advice: go to docs.google.com, and get on with life. Or turn writing documents into a hobby.
 
I'm not a Tex person so I'm not really familiar with ctan

Most things are available via binary packages via the pkg system that is part of FreeBSD.

See the handbook from information about packages. In general you should add applications to FreeBSD via the binary package system. If you have extraordinary needs you can look into the ports system - but in most cases that's not needed.

If you are not a TeX person, how do you know that doing the trivial things that you recommend solves the problem?
 
To be honest: In the last 20+ years I have not had to install (La-) TeX myself. I know it is exceedingly difficult. I rely on professional sys admins at work for that, as this is not amateur something for amateur hour.
Well web2c always compiled without big problems, I do it since decades. That, not only install FreeBSD
packages, can be done by "non TeX persons". A texmf tree with sources of plain TeX,
LaTeX and necessary fonts, remains unchanged. To dump the .fmt from time to time is not difficult,
and web2c kapathsea searchs and compile the fonts. To install manually a new package, for example german
fraktur or arabtex, is also not difficult.

It is not excedently difficult. But Texlive came and wanted to make it easy, for people that do not
know the most elementary unix commands, and inflated all. The minimal installation is by far not
minimal, you compile hours things that you do not need. And non TeX people made the rest with
their insensible FreeBSD packaging.

My proposal would be to make a package with the "minimal" texlife instalation, 273MB, there seems
to be enough and more than enough for people without big expectations like me, and who wants more,
can use the texlive package manager tlmgr installed with it.

What is the problem? Building after every upgrade. That is why I prefer packages. And by the way, I have a
similar problem with emacs. I have to compile it to strip all the features and get a more lightweight binary bomb.

It would be necessary that I be very desesperated to begin to use Word or Google. I would prefer troff.
 
I have used troff, latex, MSword, LibreOffice etc. I still write some of my tech notes (for myself) in latex & use TeXworks for quick edits and typesetting. Note that now I use a Mac for this where it works pretty well so can't say how well things work on FreeBSD any more. Installing TeXworks just now on a FreeBSD machine took a few MB but then a few things seem to be broken (I hadn't installed texlive on it). On another machine with texlive it worked fine for my use. Not sure if TeXworks works with plain TeX. But I haven't done much TeXing for years now.... Now my first choice is asciidoc or markdown (neither is great but gets the job done). The latter with tools like Obsidian which allow you to cross link notes, embed diagrams, video, images etc.
 
Now my first choice is asciidoc or markdown (neither is great but gets the job done).
I know someone that uses HTML, then you use the browser to prinit as pdf.

Not ideal, and depends on bloated browser, but in a case of necessity OK.

But for writing formulae you need perhaps something like MathJax ...

It is definitively not a substitute of TeX.
 
in 1986; the moment LaTeX became widely supported, plain TeX fell completely by the wayside, not only for me, but also in my scientific community.
You remember, at that time computers were slow, had few ram, but were able to run TeX and LaTeX.
It would be impossible to install there texlife.

Today, instead of Latex, I use "dynamic plain TeX", similar to dynamic html. To write tcl is easier than
writing TeX macros and in many cases enough. To help it I have this script:


But you can perhaps use lua if you have luatex.
 
You remember, at that time computers were slow, had few ram, but were able to run TeX and LaTeX.
It would be impossible to install there texlife.
In 1986, I was running LaTeX on an IBM 3084. That machine was not slow; it was powerful enough for 300-500 people to use as their daily driver (editing source, compiling and debugging, and have CPU power left over for batch processing). Its IO system would probably run rings around a modern PC: We had about 30 tape drives, and 80 or 100 disk drives attached to it. Each of those was slower than a modern disk, but not THAT much.

But where you're correct: The workflow I use to write documents in LaTeX is completely not live or dynamic. I write the source code of the document in LaTeX, using an editor (such as emacs). That takes hours, days or weeks. Typically, the drafts are actually written just as ASCII text, and formatting (such as headlines, section headings, figure captions) comes after most of the text is written, or at least a skeleton of it. Then I compile it occasionally into a viewable form (whether that be xdvi or dvips is a matter of taste), and leave the "graphical presentation" stuff until the last minute. This separates the tasks of writing the content from working on the cosmetics; that separation makes more sense to me. In a WYSIWYG editor (such as MS Word or Google Docs), those two tasks (content and cosmetics) get mixed together.
 
On FreeBSD I use for creating documents LibreOffice and TexLive with the Vim text editor.

I agree that TeXLive is a huge distribution. On Windows, I use MiKTex distribution, where you can install only necessary packages via GUI or on-the-fly. I noticed that MiKTeX is now in FreeBSD ports print/miktex. I’ve never tried it on FreeBSD, but it might be useful for you if TeXLive is too big for you.
 
I am writing letters and print them with editors/vim's own :hardcopy > %.ps. They look like https://mro.name/2022/brief-dina4.txt

Usually I print them as pdf via ps2pdfwr from print/ghostscript10

I got sick of heavy toolchains breaking more often than I write letters. I left TeX 10 years ago after 20 years of intense use.

Tax, school or other administrations have to make do with Courier, and if I feel like it, I draw a flower next to my signature. Seriously.

My CV I do in html and print it.

So in the end I write either text/plain or text/html.

I avoid markdown etc. as for my taste it doesn't add value to justify the quirky syntax (code blocks ugh.). Nor do I require aid by billionaires to put characters on paper.
 
In 1986, I was running LaTeX on an IBM 3084. That machine was not slow

That was you. But at that time TeX, including the path search library kpathsea, run on an old Mac. Run slow, but run.

Knuth wrote a well though, efficient program, and professional programmers bloated it.

Why? Professional programmers think everyone has the same equipment as they. If they have a supercomputer,
everyone has a supercomputer. If they have very fast internet, then everyone has very fast internet. If they
have a lot of hard disc and a lot of RAM, then everyone has a lot of hard disc and RAM. And they program
accordingly. Of course, the user is an idiot, a monkey, hence their programs are non verbal, but tactile, to be
used with the mouse.

but it might be useful for you if TeXLive is too big for you.

No. I need some binaries like tex, mf, dvips, xdvi and some other. I have my texmf tree. That Miktex is a
bloated installer with 57.9MiB that I do not need.

The solution, a compromise, is what I wrote: minimal texlive, that unfortunately is also too big, as package.
 
On my Debian machine that runs out of root filesystem space TeXLive is the biggest package by far, installed as a dependency. Very annoying. FreeBSD is not alone in the packaging problem space.
 
Knuth wrote a well though, efficient program, and professional programmers bloated it.

We need to distinguish two things here. One is the "batch" workflow, which goes roughly as follows: Edit foo.tex for days or weeks; then run latex foo followed by dvips foo, and preview the resulting foo.ps file. That workflow remains very efficient, and on modern computers (with their CPU speed) the two steps run very fast. There is no bloat here.

The other thing is the packaging. Which is pretty bad, creating a gigantic package. Massive bloat. I don't think this is the effect of "professional programmers", as I think most people contributing to LaTeX and the tool chain around it are unpaid volunteers (even if many of them have day jobs, often in mathematics or theoretical computer science).
 
That workflow remains very efficient, and on modern computers (with their CPU speed) the two steps run very fast. There is no bloat here.
Yes, after one manages to install TeX, one can work as always. And yes, the "merit" of this distributions is mainly
the packaging that could be done in a better way in many senses. I think it could be also done better as FreeBSD
port collection. Do exist something like a generic packaging system, usable for OS, Software collections of any kind?
That takes care of dependencies?
 
By the way as lightweight text processor there is also Abiword being available in the ports, which might do the job for simple documents.

If you want to be able to render many different document types out of one master document, then Pandoc is your friend.
 
If you want to be able to render many different document types
Well, I was only curious to know what other people do to write documents. The question was less to ask for orientation
or help, although some people brought interesting ideas.

I want to be able to (using your words) ...

... continue to use what I always used: TeX.

It is the way I write mathematical formulae, it something like my handwriting, and it is very difficult to change it.
I read the TeX code of a formula as it were the formula self. And it has also to do with the workflow, as ralphsz mentions.

I would not use something like Abiword, Word, Openoffice, Libreoffice, etc. As I would also not use a GUI program
for reading Email (except on the smartphone).
 
The other thing is the packaging. Which is pretty bad, creating a gigantic package. Massive bloat. I don't think this is the effect of "professional programmers", as I think most people contributing to LaTeX and the tool chain around it are unpaid volunteers (even if many of them have day jobs, often in mathematics or theoretical computer science).
I see it as a similar problem to i.e CPAN/PIP/crates.io/NPM et al. Dependencies pulling in more dependencies. Someone can barely take a breath before they need to pull in another package worth of technical debt.

Same old shite. I would even suggest this is a signature of "open-source" developers.

Annoyingly I have yet to find a viable alternative to LaTeX though. Currently I use (and maintain) an absolutely ancient distribution. However I am starting to move over to a standalone bundle of TexLive so it at least encapsulates the spam which I really don't want all over my system. I used to go to university (and host the UNIX group) with the current maintainer of TexLive on OpenBSD; I knew he spent great effort and care maintaining the port.
 
What do you use to write letters? To write articles, etc?
I write in editors/vim with the use of Daring Fireball Markdown. Processing the .md file with pandoc (textproc/py-pypandoc) to beautiful PDF.

Pandoc also understands LaTeX commands in the file, eg. to remove page numbers and use A4-paper. It needs print/texlive-base etc. but you don't notice it's there claiming some disk space.

Pandoc has an extensive description of possibilities, and can be used with print/latex-beamer for slide presentations.
 
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