The Tragedy of Systemd

justinnoor

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Excellent presentation by Benno Rice titled “The Tragedy of Systemd.” I checked briefly to see if this was already posted and did not see any similar posts. Please inform me if it was so it can be removed.

The Tragedy of Systemd
 

forquare

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I watched it the other day and felt he made some very good points.

I was a little surprised he didn't add SMF from Solaris into the comparison. While I dislike administering Linux systems for the unfamiliarity of systemd commands, I was very happy with SMF when I was a Solaris admin.
 

Spartrekus

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Sorry to say this but Systemd is not necessarily considered as a "Tragedy" for a Linux developer.
There are many Linux developers that are very fine with Systemd.

However, the real Unix developer might have quite different vision about it.

By the end Systemd is very good for Linux. It allows to make Linux more like Windows - good for a large majority of Linux users. Remember that Linux is used largely for Desktop ;)
 
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justinnoor

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Benno Rice explains why Systemd is considered a tragedy. He’s not claiming it is. The title can be misleading.
 

Sevendogsbsd

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Sorry to say this but Systemd is not necessarily considered as a "Tragedy" for a Linux developer.
There are many Linux developers that are very fine with Systemd.

However, the real Unix developer might have quite different vision about it.

By the end Systemd is very good for Linux. It allows to make Linux more like Windows - good for most users.

Why on earth would anyone want to make an OS more like Windows? Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.
 

forquare

Well-Known Member

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Sorry to say this but Systemd is not necessarily considered as a "Tragedy" for a Linux developer.
There are many Linux developers that are very fine with Systemd.

You might like to listen to the talk 😉
 

blueCub

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I watched this talk on YouTube in a BSD conf and then here. I didn’t like its tone in the Linux conference (the one here). Personally I felt this version was a bit negative and (kind of) condescending in some ways.
 

Spartrekus

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I watched this talk on YouTube in a BSD conf and then here. I didn’t like its tone in the Linux conference (the one here). Personally I felt this version was a bit negative and (kind of) condescending in some ways.

Maybe look at it from observer point of view... if it helps.
It is not so much critical. He gives his opinion about it, answer questions.
Anyhow this talk is not so much impacting on BSD.
 

blueCub

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The BSD conf version of the talk was great. I didn’t enjoy the Linux one though.

It’s good and healthy to criticise the BSDs and tohave different opinions to the mainstream way of thinking, but it’s not super nice to mock others for simply not agreeing with your opinions. That’s how I personally felt, and it’s a common thing in Benno Rice appearances. Constructive at BSD conf and not much repeating the same talk in front of Linux users.
 

Sevendogsbsd

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Listening to it now - I like it, great talk and very informative. Dispels a lot of myths that I have heard and provides what appears to be an unbiased view of systemd. It's not what I was expecting. Thanks for providing the link.
 

client

New Member

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fail to see the "excellent/very good/great in it; you can't dispel something if you use the same L. P. logic.
 

ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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Remember that Linux is used largely for Desktop ;)
False. Linux is mostly used as a server operating system. Linux has a very small market share in the desktop market ... a few percent at most; if you include tablets and cell phones in the consumer computer count, then Linux' market share drops to less than 1% (the big ones are Android, iOS, and Windows, in that order). It has an extremely high market share in the server market, depending on who you ask it is somewhere between 50% and 90%. In some specific server markets its share is even higher. For example, among supercomputers (the big scientific and national security machines), Linux market share is 100%: every single machine on the top500 runs Linux. Among the big server companies (like Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, Baidu, Facebook, Google, ...), Linux runs the vast majority of all servers; and those companies have more computers than there are consumer-owned laptops and desktops (today there are more servers in the world).

Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.
While you may very well be right from a technical point of view, Windows is also a massive success in the market place, and remains it. Among desktop and laptop machines (excluding cellphones and tablets), Windows has a market share of ~90%, and only MacOS gets anywhere close. Linux is in the single-digit percents (I think about 2% or 3%), and non-Linux OSes like FreeBSD are in the tenths of a percent.

For the average non-specialist computer user, Windows is, for better or for worse, the #1 choice.
 

Vull

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An old analogy I've heard many times is that most users just want a car where they can put in a key and drive without too much tinkering required. That's true of most of the people I know including most industry professionals. What seems to be a large majority of people want something that works "out of the box" which they can drive effortlessly and without worrying too much about how it works. Old chestnut but helps explain the wider popularity of products like Windows, and maybe to a lesser extent, free software like GNU/Linux offers. Helps explain also-- if it's even true-- why FreeBSD developers pay real money to use Mac OS, and also, how Debian derivatives like Linux Mint and Ubuntu can compete so well against Debian.

Edited to add: ... and maybe it also helps to explain the success of systemd which is purported to make some things easier, but I'm not really convinced yet, and these videos were informative but haven't convinced me either in that regard.
 

OJ

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Why on earth would anyone want to make an OS more like Windows? Windows is a horrific nightmare: overly complex, bad UI, and don't even get me started on the registry, or the broken patch process.
Simply because they want it to be like what most people are using. Your comments about it, though I might agree, are irrelevant to most people. This is probably the biggest tragedy in the history of modern computers.
 

OJ

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Old chestnut but helps explain the wider popularity of products like Windows,

I don't think so. Windows does not work out of the box very well. It takes a long time to click through a lot of stuff when one gets a new machine. I've done it for others and been surprised at the time it takes - a quick Linux install from scratch is almost comparable. An hour would be reasonable for someone who hasn't done it numerous times before. I don't know about running Windows on a daily basis myself but all I hear is complaints and horror stories from users - not to mention the press.

I believe the real reason for the popularity of Windows is the activity of their legal department. I've heard it's their largest, but regardless, the contracts with hardware suppliers is the key. Nothing to do with any qualities of the OS itself.

One could actually argue that MS is more of a legal contract company than an OS developer. I'd certainly think that with the revenue they have available, that after all these years if they really were a software company foremost, their products would be near bug free by now.

PS: There's probably not a lot of MS-Windows fans, let alone shills, on this forum. But I'd like to add that regardless of the legitimate complaints that one can rightfully hurtle at their operating systems, I do see that a lot of people, including consummate professionals, are able to use it very well to their advantage.
 

Spartrekus

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False. Linux is mostly used as a server operating system. Linux has a very small market share in the desktop market ... a few percent at most; if you include tablets and cell phones in the consumer computer count, then Linux' market share drops to less than 1% (the big ones are Android, iOS, and Windows, in that order). It has an extremely high market share in the server market, depending on who you ask it is somewhere between 50% and 90%. In some specific server markets its share is even higher. For example, among supercomputers (the big scientific and national security machines), Linux market share is 100%: every single machine on the top500 runs Linux. Among the big server companies (like Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, Baidu, Facebook, Google, ...), Linux runs the vast majority of all servers; and those companies have more computers than there are consumer-owned laptops and desktops (today there are more servers in the world).


While you may very well be right from a technical point of view, Windows is also a massive success in the market place, and remains it. Among desktop and laptop machines (excluding cellphones and tablets), Windows has a market share of ~90%, and only MacOS gets anywhere close. Linux is in the single-digit percents (I think about 2% or 3%), and non-Linux OSes like FreeBSD are in the tenths of a percent.

For the average non-specialist computer user, Windows is, for better or for worse, the #1 choice.

A phone, a server (there are)....
It does not matter actually.

One the most amazing system is the Android (Phone, Tablet). That high power consumption thing...
Yes Yes, users accept to access contacts, including involving business contacts and infos in it.
Access to SD card, ... this is amazing that the mass buy Android and accept all this junk of Google INC Corporation.

Corporation might control this planet ;)
 

Vull

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I don't think so. Windows does not work out of the box very well.
I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box, as do Mac OS and most GNU/Linux distributions. Some of the FreeBSD derivatives are also competitive on those particular points because they want to "give the people what they want" as per tried-and-true Madison Avenue-style advertising folklore.

The Windows configuration needs for most people will all be on a GUI interface, which is what casual users usually prefer. Personally I'd rather have a few text configuration files I can easily edit and/or copy over to a new host, instead of having to hand-configure each machine up-close-and-personal on its GUI interface, but there you are. Many of us on this forum are not representative of most people and don't always want what the majority of people want.
 

Spartrekus

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I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box, as do Mac OS and most GNU/Linux distributions. Some of the FreeBSD derivatives are also competitive on those particular points because they want to "give the people what they want" as per tried-and-true Madison Avenue-style advertising folklore.

The Windows configuration needs for most people will all be on a GUI interface, which is what casual users usually prefer. Personally I'd rather have a few text configuration files I can easily edit and/or copy over to a new host, instead of having to hand-configure each machine up-close-and-personal on its GUI interface, but there you are. Many of us on this forum are not representative of most people and don't always want what the majority of people want.

For educational activities, from early school ... then engineering, computer sciences,.... it is important to start with Microsoft Windows, Office, ... it is a part of education. You won't write on your CV only opensource softwares. ;)
 

OJ

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I essentially agree but Windows offers quick internet access and a usable GUI desktop out of the box,
And indeed so does Linux. I don't think I've ever seen it come up without a workable internet connection. That's the first thing it does. And the desktop of your choice too. I honestly don't think Windows has anything on Linux when it comes to having a solid internet connection and a working desktop. I am talking from experience here, but you may have a point if we go back 5 years. Of course if you're not willing to take the distro as it comes out of the box, then all kinds of things can happen. :)
 

Spartrekus

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And indeed so does Linux. I don't think I've ever seen it come up without a workable internet connection. That's the first thing it does. And the desktop of your choice too. I honestly don't think Windows has anything on Linux when it comes to having a solid internet connection and a working desktop. I am talking from experience here, but you may have a point if we go back 5 years. Of course if you're not willing to take the distro as it comes out of the box, then all kinds of things can happen. :)

Linux can harm your router/ ... it does not well the networking.
Check for instance the live distro of devuan into /usr/sbin/....
 

ShelLuser

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At the risk of diverting the topic a little bit, but...

Windows does not work out of the box very well. It takes a long time to click through a lot of stuff when one gets a new machine.
I have to disagree on that ;) I recently got a new machine running on Win10 and the setup process didn't take longer than 5 minutes or so. Another thing you're overlooking (or so I think) is that the whole process can also easily be automated if you want to. A few simple scripts are enough, and then you don't have to click through anything. This was already possible back in the XP days.

And well.... Windows easily detected my printer and installed the drivers for it whereas Linux requires me to muck around with CUPS. Which did manage to detect the printer (Samsung SCX 4623, an older machine), claimed to have a driver available but that driver never worked for me ;) (and others, according to some Google searches).

Everything is easy if you know how to do it, yet if you don't know then an environment such as Windows can do a whole lot for you.

I don't know about running Windows on a daily basis myself but all I hear is complaints and horror stories from users - not to mention the press.
Problem with such comments is that most people are more inclined to share their horror stories and will take it for granted when things work just the way they want.

I believe the real reason for the popularity of Windows is the activity of their legal department. I've heard it's their largest, but regardless, the contracts with hardware suppliers is the key. Nothing to do with any qualities of the OS itself.
You'd be surprised.

Windows goes a lot deeper than you think. I've been both a Solaris and Windows admin and I can tell you that underneath the GUI Windows is a lot more like Unix than many people are willing to believe. Example... back in the days; checking the logs of several servers to see if nothing went wrong. All I basically needed was one simple PowerShell script and that's it. Roughly something as this: Get-EventLog -ComputerName server1,server2,server3,server4 -LogName system -EntryType error -Newest 5, and wham; I get the last 5 error messages in the system log for 4 servers at once.

Powered by a management service that has been part of Windows ever since XP.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to insinuate that Windows is perfect, but it's a lot more structured and designed than most people give it credit for. Which is understandable given the fact that most people don't look beyond the GUI and all those annoying options ;)

For the record: I'm using Win10 on a daily basis and I actually enjoy it. For servers I fully rely on FreeBSD which I also enjoy working with.
 

Spartrekus

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Hej, Windows is just junk because you do not have the source code.
Therefore it is useless to use a closed source operating system for any single use.

All software should be free, at least in school and universities, and readily opensource for educational interests.

Education should be first reason, for not using Windows.
 
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