Taking the diversity mantra to the extreme

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So far, they have many failed attempts to push woman to involved more in IT, especially open source projects, e.g: Debian

I asked many female friends of mine, they simply don't want to work in the IT field simply because they can't stand sitting down in front of the monitor for hours. It's bad for their beauty, they said.

I asked many gay friends of mine, they said they would rather prefer to work as fashion designers and content makers rather than IT.

So it's not because they were treated unfairly but it's simply because they are lack of interest in the IT field.

Put this aside, so far we have only take the diversity mantra up to genders equality.

What if someday they started (because they have too much time but have nothing to do?) to take diversity in the next step, programming languages?

What do you think about programming language diversity in the FreeBSD source code?

Do you think we should add code in Free Pascal, Rust, Free Basic,... to the FreeBSD source code to ensure 'programming languages diversity'?

C has been the de facto language for OS development for too long. It's 'racist' to other programming languages!

p/s: Be free to replace 'racist' with 'unfair' but don't delete my thread. I know there is place that too strict even mention the word 'racist' is not allowed. The context I used this word is very different from the common sense, though.
 

Crivens

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I asked many female friends of mine, they simply don't want to work in the IT field simply because they can't stand sitting down in front of the monitor for hours. It's bad for their beauty, they said.
There is a name for women who use their beauty to make money. No disrespect there, it is an old and solid profession.

It is fascinating, in a dark way, what 'equality' can do. You know where the highest ratio of female engineers is attending uni? Theran. Among the lowest? Sweden. The country that has 'mappa' and 'pamma' as mix-up names for your father/mother parent persons. This language stuff seems to have happened some time ago. You can read what it did to some large construction project, the report is part of one best selling book of adult stories.
 

ralphbsz

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Your discussion about genders isn't even worth engaging in.

Do you think we should add code in Free Pascal, Rust, Free Basic,... to the FreeBSD source code to ensure 'programming languages diversity'?
Those who don't know history are ...

VMS deliberately had parts of the "OS" (the basic distribution kit) written in a variety of languages. The kernel was, as far as I remember, a mixture of Bliss and assembly (Bliss is related to some ancestors of C). Many of the utilities were written in Bliss. But for every language that was supported and available on VMS (such as Fortran, Cobol, PL/1, RPG, Modula, Pascal), at least one OS utility was written in that language. That way the OS engineering group made sure that executives would not cancel any compiler development, since all compilers were needed to produce the base OS.
 

wolffnx

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I have 2 cases, one is 2 girls that start working on it support
and they way of think,responsability,etc if far better of the mens of the same it department
and one guy man too,older
is a good men and a good work coworker(make jokes all the time,etc)

like Crivens says, there is a name for the woman who use the beauty for make money(except for models)

for my, honestly, some years ago i was tend to discriminate the gays mens
but i learn that is only a choise of life,they still are people,like me or anybody and generaly are good persons

back to the point,I dont think that exists a "language code diversity"
like the heteresexual mens,
some dont like it develop,some dont have the skills to develop(aka brain) and left it to geeks
and the same happen to all gender people
if they liked the it world they in and learn..if not they follow their dreams
sometimes the stereotype of the gender or not (like the gay people I know and female)
some of them have administrative
jobs,it and performs wery well
so… in my opinion there is no genre to do X things
and try to pigonhole that is even worse that discriminate
 

drhowarddrfine

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As far as I can tell, the whole statement is based on quicksand. This is talk for the sake of talk and no substance and probably too off topic for off topic. Stating C is racist against other languages is very strange to say the least and the least is what this thread is.
 
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Yeah, let's not anthropomorphize programming languages.
Yes, you are right. I just tried to bring the programming language diversity on the table but don't know to open it. So I invoke genders equality to start the story. I'm wrong because it's vary between countries, but I'm sure the mindsets I represented above of woman and gay people in my country are right. They just don't like IT. They don't engage in the field simply because they don't like it and not because they are unfairly treated. In no way I could know if woman and gay people on other countries think the same or not. People misunderstood my story and go that far to woman that uses their beauty to earn money that I have not even think about.

Maybe I should rephrase my thread: I wanted to contribute to FreeBSD. Will the project accept my code if it's not written in C, but, e.g: Pascal?

I think it's very unlikely. Because if they accept Pascal code in base they will need to ship the Free Pascal compiler, too. This will be way too bloated.
 

shkhln

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So I invoke genders equality to start the story.
Never a good idea.

I'm wrong because it's vary between countries, but I'm sure the mindsets I represented above of woman and gay people in my country are right. They just don't like IT.
There is nothing special about women and gay people (dis)liking programming as a potential job. It's just not a very fun activity outside of hobby projects. People aren't that stupid and they correctly perceive it as such.

Anyway, those "equality" movements are mostly about economic prospects, not overall happiness, at least not directly.
 

ShelLuser

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My gf is a little bit of a geek I suppose and her opinion on the matter is simple: "Some women cry 'equallity' simply because they can't manage on their own".

And I tend to agree with that.

(edit)

I've been asked to elaborate a (little) bit on the subject and I think an edit is the best way (don't want to risk hijacking). Small bit of context: my gf is very much interested in ICT but professionally she has specialized in administration. In her last job she worked as a staff secretary within a consultancy company and grew up to become a bit of a right hand. In other words: she often got asked about her opinion in specific matters.

Yah, but she was also interested in ICT and the IT / support department quickly noticed that she wasn't only interested: she actually knew what she was talking about. At one time she even convinced the director that "just adding more people" just couldn't work during a crisis meeting (can't share more than this) which gained her a helluvalot of respect from that IT department and the director alike.

The IT department ran into some problems when someone left (all on good terms) because the company couldn't manage to hire new personal in time. So my gf (who was still very much interested in ICT) suggested that maybe she could temporarily help them out. An offer that was accepted with both hands by the IT department because they realized what she could do.

Yah... her words, not mine: she never felt more welcomed than there. She wasn't met with "the directors favorite" but instead became part of the team, one girl amongst a department of men, within weeks. No problem. Which leads to her comment above...

(/edit)
 
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PMc

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Yes, you are right. I just tried to bring the programming language diversity on the table but don't know to open it. So I invoke genders equality to start the story. I'm wrong because it's vary between countries, but I'm sure the mindsets I represented above of woman and gay people in my country are right. They just don't like IT. They don't engage in the field simply because they don't like it and not because they are unfairly treated.
You are maybe not even so much wrong. It is very obvious that there is an under-representation of women in the programming business. This is still present and was even more significant in past decades.
But then, there are are few interesting phenomena that are worth to be perceived: this mis-representation of genders is more expressed in topics like system-near programming (kernel, device drivers), it is less pronounced in the application-near programming (databases, web-design). So one could assume the more abstract a topic is, the more it is a men's domain, and the more tangible and visible the results become, the more women appear in the field.

And there is another interesting thing: in my job, a lot of the women working in the field came from the east part of germany - the former communist part. The communists had a lot more female engineers. And they were good, compentent, precise, responsible. it was joy working with them.

So it cannot be true that women are just not interested. At least some of them are interested, and can do, and do good quality work.

And from there, there are some questions to ask. Like: do women, as kids, not get the proper motivation to do abstract thinking? Like, in most of the traditional cultures, back to old greece, minus 2.5k years (as far as Europe is concerned) it was custom that the men would sit in the marketplace and discuss philosophy, while the women focused on creating a nice home. How much of this is still remaining?
Certainly there is a bidirectional influencing here: tradition influences how people develop, and people's nature influences tradition.

Anyway, I don't see any point in trying to forcibly change things to become more even (or whatever). Only so much as everybody should have all possible opportunitiies. As it is said: do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
 

Snurg

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Very interesting topic, but very dangerous.
Looking at the animal realm, there are differences between the sexes and their natural best sharing of tasks.

I often ask myself whether the cultural rise (philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, technology,...) would even have been possible if the matriarchat hadn't been overthrown long ago.

Regarding Crowleys' quote, I am not that sure whether it is good, as it shows an attitude of not caring about others (btw, one could say the environmentalist thread is much about recklessness).
 

PMc

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Very interesting topic, but very dangerous.
Looking at the animal realm, there are differences between the sexes and their natural best sharing of tasks.
Yes, but - according to the wise - animals have a group soul per-species. While humans have an individual soul per each human creature. So while you can, to quite an extent, generalize the behaviours of animals, you cannot so with humans.

I often ask myself whether the cultural rise (philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, technology,...) would even have been possible if the matriarchat hadn't been overthrown long ago.
Lets put it differently: inhowfar is cultural advance driven by warfare?
This is certainly true for the 'race to the moon', and the Internet is, to quite an extent, a spinoff from that (read: D-ARPA).
Or, in earlier times - what is it that made the 'western civilisation' occupy all the world during the recent couple of centuries? I believe it is not natural science, neither philosophy, but - organization. And then, I believe, the first actors who brought up proper organization in Europe - building a functional business infrastructure and an operative banking system (which is, until today, a major prerequisite for economic success) - were the Knights Templar. And they were a military force.

About the matriarchy: we don't know if there was a matriarchy. There is a couple of people telling so, and some claim there is scientific proof (which is doubtful). For certain they are politically biased - just like the other side is politically biased also. So this does not tell us anything proper.

But one thing I think is very important here: the idea of complement. That is two things that are NOT equal, and MUST NOT be equal - but together they form a whole which is more than the sum of the parts.

Regarding Crowleys' quote, I am not that sure whether it is good, as it shows an attitude of not caring about others (btw, one could say the environmentalist thread is much about recklessness).
I won't help You figure that one out - but remember, there is a second line to this quote.
 

Trihexagonal

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My Sister works at a computer all day and the last thing she wants to touch when she gets off work is one. She is responsible for all billing at a State Facility but knows nothing about computers but the Program she uses daily.

That's all she's ever had to learn and is proficient in her job, but could not begin to follow the Beginners Tutorial I wrote much less run my machines. I couldn't sit down and run her program or do her job without some learning to do.

I can only write markup Languages like XHTML and CSS, no real programming language. She can't write that. I'm doing good to write this post now.

Which is better and what does gender have to do with it?
 

kpedersen

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C has been the de facto language for OS development for too long. It's 'racist' to other programming languages!
C has for a long time (and will continue to be) the underlying platform for not just operating systems but also 99% of other languages. Mostly because many of these "languages" are really just C programs pretending to interpret text files in interesting ways. Rust and FreeBASIC for example couldn't exist without C. Likewise FreePascal calls into C libraries more than it does its own libraries.

As for gender... I recently watched the Mars lander live and was happy to see a good diversity of gender and races in the control room. This stuff will always resolve itself over time. Even though Debian's (creepy) gender diversity project failed, I still think it will only be a generation or two before it will be 50:50 again.
 

drhowarddrfine

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What bothers me the most about statements regarding getting more women into programming is nobody asks if they want to. Maybe they don't want to cause it's something they don't want to do.

My wife and I were somewhere and television so-called "news" was on. A story was on about getting more women into professional sports like hockey and football. I asked, "Why would a woman want to do that?", to which the three women in the room said, "Exactly!".

And what is someone doing about getting more men into the fashion industry? Or sewing? Shouldn't there be television "news" fables about that, too?
 

richardtoohey2

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I still think it will only be a generation or two before it will be 50:50 again
Agreed, but I think it does need some progress to carry on e.g. getting rid of "booth babes" at conferences, considering if we need projects to be named "weboob" and so on.

I don't think it's just about protecting "snowflakes" - if an environment is unwelcoming (even if "joking") then some people will feel excluded. And we all miss out.

I'm not sure code of conduct changes have been the right way (even if well-intentioned) but I certainly don't have the answers! There's a balance, and as with so many issues in life, sometimes we are unbalanced too far one way, and then we wobble and over-correct and end up too far over the other way.
So it cannot be true that women are just not interested. At least some of them are interested, and can do, and do good quality work.
+1
 

wolffnx

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ok,offtopic,in what other computers forum will be people like there are here,with the diferent and well elaborated opinions,education and knowledge about everything?
only here and a just love it
 

fryshke

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So far, they have many failed attempts to push woman to involved more in IT, especially open source projects, e.g: Debian

I asked many female friends of mine, they simply don't want to work in the IT field simply because they can't stand sitting down in front of the monitor for hours. It's bad for their beauty, they said.

I asked many gay friends of mine, they said they would rather prefer to work as fashion designers and content makers rather than IT.

So it's not because they were treated unfairly but it's simply because they are lack of interest in the IT field.

Put this aside, so far we have only take the diversity mantra up to genders equality.

What if someday they started (because they have too much time but have nothing to do?) to take diversity in the next step, programming languages?

What do you think about programming language diversity in the FreeBSD source code?

Do you think we should add code in Free Pascal, Rust, Free Basic,... to the FreeBSD source code to ensure 'programming languages diversity'?

C has been the de facto language for OS development for too long. It's 'racist' to other programming languages!

p/s: Be free to replace 'racist' with 'unfair' but don't delete my thread. I know there is place that too strict even mention the word 'racist' is not allowed. The context I used this word is very different from the common sense, though.
Your disturbing lack of understanding what gender equality means is exactly the reason why there's not many women in IT. The mental gymnastics required to go from women in IT to "Do you think we should add code in Free Pascal, Rust, Free Basic,... to the FreeBSD source code to ensure 'programming languages diversity'?" is batshit insane.

Anyways, I've never experienced inequality, because I don't work in shit companies, but when ex - Java developer - told me that she got invited into several interviews so that interviewers just could take a look at this mythical women programmer - made me understand that if you don't see inequality, doesn't mean there is none. Plenty of public IT women statements on the internets.
 

PMc

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Your disturbing lack of understanding what gender equality means is exactly the reason why there's not many women in IT. The mental gymnastics required to go from women in IT to "Do you think we should add code in Free Pascal, Rust, Free Basic,... to the FreeBSD source code to ensure 'programming languages diversity'?" is batshit insane.
Oh, an SJW! Hi.

Anyways, I've never experienced inequality, because I don't work in shit companies, but when ex - Java developer - told me that she got invited into several interviews so that interviewers just could take a look at this mythical women programmer - made me understand that if you don't see inequality, doesn't mean there is none. Plenty of public IT women statements on the internets.
Then why at all did she accept invitations from the base on the dark side of the moon?

Recent love affair of mine, when I told her about my career in IT, she decided to do similar, and became a Java developer. A while later she had a job as a consultant, travelling internationally. This appears to be a very ordinary thing, perfectly normal and not even remarkable.
 

fryshke

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Oh, an SJW! Hi.


Then why at all did she accept invitations from the base on the dark side of the moon?

Recent love affair of mine, when I told her about my career in IT, she decided to do similar, and became a Java developer. A while later she had a job as a consultant, travelling internationally. This appears to be a very ordinary thing, perfectly normal and not even remarkable.
Did you just ask why companies don't advertise as "boys only"? :D :D :D And yes, it's ordinary and unremarkable - and that's the problem, hello. Last 4 companies I've worked in/working in -ordinary and unremarkable is that a woman comes to software dev position interview and no one gives a shit about her gender. That's what women are complaining about, they want to change ordinary and unremarkable from your understanding, hello.

No wonder such stupid question also calls me SJW. I think my collection of labels is complete. What a trip - from hardcore racist yesterday to SJW today :)))
 

fryshke

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What bothers me the most about statements regarding getting more women into programming is nobody asks if they want to. Maybe they don't want to cause it's something they don't want to do.


And what is someone doing about getting more men into the fashion industry? Or sewing? Shouldn't there be television "news" fables about that, too?
What about what about. One problem at the time, okay? Okay. Humoring your what about what about - yes, it's a problem, why male nurses or male sewers are still getting scoffed at? Go make a fucking thread and we'll discuss that there, stop crying what about what about.

And why don't women wanna program? Maybe because passion starts during childhood, and young girls don't really have much heroes in IT and everywhere they look they see boys and they think it's not for them?
 

PMc

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Did you just ask why companies don't advertise as "boys only"? :D :D :D And yes, it's ordinary and unremarkable - and that's the problem, hello. Last 4 companies I've worked in/working in -ordinary and unremarkable is that a woman comes to software dev position interview and no one gives a shit about her gender.
And that's the error! I do give a ... about gender! Because nature itself does, otherwise we wouldn't exist.
That's exactly the bullshit, that you come along talking people should become sterile neutrums! They aren't, and it's a blasphemy against nature to expect they should becume.
That's what women are complaining about, they want to change ordinary and unremarkable from your understanding, hello.
Never seen a woman who would want to be "unremarkable".
 
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