Suggestions - single board ITX ARM computers

jammied · Mar 5, 2022

Hi

Looking for suggestions for potential single board ARM computers.

Basic hardware requirements:
- As many independent display outputs as possible.
- SATA port.
- M.2 slot.

Desirable: DC power input.

As you might have guessed, I intend to run BSD on it. Which is unlikely to be an issue so long as there is no kind of locked bootloader or unusual chipset. I do intend to use this as a desktop PC

hardworkingnewbie · Mar 5, 2022

Here's the official list of supported ARM hardware under FreeBSD13:

FreeBSD/ARM Project

FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms.

www.freebsd.org

covacat · Mar 5, 2022

for a desktop you'll be better with a refurbished x86 thin client. you'll get better hw support, a case, upgradable memory, pcie bus,sata

HP t620 Flexible Thin Client

bought one of these (refurbished) https://support.hp.com/ee-en/document/c04017240 the dual core version 4GB RAM / 16G SSD got it cheaper than an arm board ($50) and it is well supported memory and ssd seem to be upgradable cpu performance is about the same as an arm64 board but IO is much better...

forums.freebsd.org

here is some easy benchmarks for the hp thin client@1.65ghz , amlogic arm64 s905x3@1.9ghz, rpi zero, intel i5 gen 2@3ghz
the amlogic box runs debian

Code:

openssl speed sha256 md5
box     type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes  16384 bytes
hp-tc   sha256           19792.46k    42854.25k    72697.42k    88031.70k    94034.70k    94266.19k
        md5              49087.31k   122578.71k   233191.30k   300663.85k   327865.60k   330125.32k

s905x3  sha256           64943.43k   203063.55k   472577.79k   707701.81k   826034.86k   835600.38k
        md5              41637.26k   104540.38k   191902.46k   242194.43k   263259.10k   263798.78k

rpi-b   sha256            3261.35k     7738.51k    13970.35k    17334.62k    18593.65k    18278.34k
        md5               6509.79k    17495.66k    34052.33k    44766.08k    48273.13k    45405.27k

i5-g2   sha256           56989.57k   122289.70k   207796.05k   250989.74k   267362.37k   268043.26k
        md5             107395.62k   244430.83k   426506.84k   529907.03k   568827.90k   572533.42k

7z b in the same order, middle column is single thread, same order as above

                       Compressing  |                  Decompressing
Dict     Speed Usage    R/U Rating  |      Speed Usage    R/U Rating
----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             185   1100   2032  |              199   1426   2834
Tot:             192   1263   2433

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             336    936   3147  |              394   1730   6821
Tot:             365   1333   4984

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:              98    140    136  |               98    304    300
Tot:              98    222    218

----------------------------------  | ------------------------------
Avr:             321   4039  13005  |              400   3045  12182
Tot:             360   3542  12594

jammied · Mar 6, 2022

One of the reasons I want an ARM board is power consumption/performance tradeoff.

With the going estimates for how high electricity costs are going to get in the UK, power consumption has turned into a very big deal.

covacat · Mar 6, 2022

you are looking at 1.5 pound / month difference if the x86 draws 25W more than the arm box while using it 8hours / day
probably the difference is less than that
365*8*25/1000*.25 = 18.25 (yearly)

hardworkingnewbie · Mar 6, 2022

If you really want to use an ARM CPU as desktop computer day by day, then this here is the best way to do it right now with having access to a big software library, good performance and no big hassle:

Mac mini

The new, smaller Mac mini with M4 and M4 Pro chips. Built for Apple Intelligence. Now with front and back ports. And the first carbon-neutral Mac.

www.apple.com

All other potential ARM desktop hardware is not as far advanced yet as Apple. Apple has taken the lead there in 2020, with all others catching up since then.

The issue is that the market for ARM based mainboards really is starting at the moment, so there's not a big number to choose from yet. This will probably gain a bigger market share when Microsoft starts shipping ARM Windows to all. Qualcomm for example wants to ship ARM desktop CPUs in 2023.

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

hardworkingnewbie said:
The issue is that the market for ARM based mainboards really is starting at the moment, so there's not a big number to choose from yet.

Well there are some choices for servers(1) but they have no video and are unsuitable for a desktop.

I would say for a Arm board for desktop you stay with the herd=RPi4

(1) Overdrive 1000; MacchiatoBin; Honeycomb; ThunderX2
https://www.cnx-software.com/2016/0...ed-by-amd-opteron-a1100-64-bit-arm-processor/

MACCHIATObin Single Shot - Marvell MACCHIATObin

The MACCHIATObin Single Shot is an entry-level, budget-minded and balanced development board including all the robust features of the MACCHIATObin with the ARMADA 8040 processor running up to 1.6 GHz processing speed and dual 10GbE SFP connectors. The Single Shot version is available at a much...

macchiatobin.net

hardworkingnewbie · Mar 6, 2022

The Pi 4 is quite a nice little device. Only problem when trying to use it with FreeBSD is that hardware driver support is still on-going for some stuff, e.g. Wifi is not working.

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

Same with the Arm server boards. Many major components do not work.

I would buy an MACCHIATObin Single Shot but the Fiber ethernet ports are not supported.
That is a deal breaker. For $300+ I need that feature to work.

As for WiFi its kinda like the ethernet chips used on the baby Arm boards.
They just use the cheapest at the time of design. Make up something new. Wifi9+-+ or whatever.
Too trendy.
Wish they focused instead on PCIe fabric and slots instead of cheazy gizmos. Let me choose my wifi card.

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

Phishfry said:
Wish they focused instead on PCIe fabric and slots

Also lets make that PCIe bus on Arm a standard.
We should not need a separate PCIe Bus driver for every implementation.

This is where Arm is missing a market driver like Intel.
They made the standards. Other followed.
Arm is a giant fragmented market that is more akin to an IP holding company. as the leader..
How many families of Arm chips are there?

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

What is painful to me is Gateworks seems to have had the right idea many many years ago.
Plant a PLX chip on your IMX6 Platform and you can have 6 MiniPCIe slots.

The problem is nobody wants to spend $700 on Arm.

Ventana GW5400 Single Board Computer - Gateworks Corporation - Single Board Computers

Ventana GW5400 Rugged & Industrial Single Board Computer END OF LIFE: Please Consider our Venice Family of Single Board Computers View Venice SBCs The GW5400 is the largest member of the Gateworks 5th generation Ventana family of rugged and industrial media single board computer (SBCs) targeted...

www.gateworks.com

Maybe I have different needs than other Arm users. I need expansion slots.
Gateworks board is much like the APU2/3 but with more expansion slots.
Wish they were like $200 and supported on FreeBSD.
There has to be a happy medium between $35 Minimalist Arm boards and $750 gold standard.

I have a Raxda Rock 3A enroute from China. That seems to have the expansion I desire so we will see.

covacat · Mar 6, 2022

if you just want a low powered desktop go x86
if you want to experiment / hack various stuff / go arm but do not expect 'desktop replacement'

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

Yes and my philosophy is biased.
One of our developers acheron mentioned he was using a video card with the HoneyComb board.
With a single slot I dunno if I like that. Wasting the precious slot for video card. I would be trying Chelsio 10G..

But as a developer you can make anything work. HoneyComb as a desktop. Check.

cmoerz · Mar 6, 2022

I was looking at HoneyComb myself recently; I remember the graphics card choice not being completely clear either. You needed to choose one that works with the board's firmware.

Reference to previous post:

Honeycomb LX2

Today, I've gone down the rabbit hole on Solid Run's Honeycomb LX2. For those who don't know it - it's an ARM based workstation, that looks very promising and reasonably priced. https://www.solid-run.com/arm-servers-networking-platforms/honeycomb-workstation/ I'm uncertain though, how well...

forums.freebsd.org

Reference to some demo video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcfZhStsA0

I bailed on the board, after the online shop forced me to sign up with PayPal, which turned into a major PITA. Obviously, YMMV.

Phishfry · Mar 6, 2022

Yea I just cant pay $750 for one PCIe slot. Without RAM.

HoneyComb LX2 - LX2160A 16-core Arm Workstation - SolidRun

shop.solid-run.com

4 SATA is nice. 110mm NVMe slot is server grade. Solid NAS features.
Even with my generous tax refund I can not do it.
Being an early adopter ain't cheap!

Oh yea SolidRuns store charges premium shipping prices too.

cmoerz · Mar 6, 2022

Yup, I agree, it's a hefty price tag. Particularly, because you need to bring your own memory, graphics, storage and box on top of it.

jammied · Mar 7, 2022

Yeah, the HoneyComb's price tag is a little of a bummer but still quite an interesting option for my purposes. Might potentially then want some low cost dual output ARM boards to go with it. (I have an idea).

Also, as stated:

Phishfry said:
But as a developer you can make anything work. HoneyComb as a desktop. Check.

Phishfry · Mar 7, 2022

I wonder if the HoneyComb LX2 can take ECC RAM? That would be a ZFS must have for NAS.
Those little laptop RAM modules are usually expensive in ECC. I don't know about the 1.2V spec.
Better than soldered on RAM. 64GB Max is respectable,

Phishfry · Mar 7, 2022

Looking here they support a pair of 32GB ECC modules. That would probably cost as much as the board.

Com Express Type 7 LX2160A Tested SO-DIMM Memory - SolidRun

Introduction The intention of this page is to describe what has been tested on the LX2160A COM express type 7 module; what has passed and what has failed. Testing Methodology The testing methodology is mainly focused on running multiple instances of Linux memtester tool (as the core count) with...

developer.solid-run.com

There is an old saying.
If you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it.

Phishfry · Mar 7, 2022

I just sent a Dear Jane letter to Gateworks sales. Inquiring about 5 boards I donate to FreeBSD Foundation.
These are the newer i.MX8 version:

Industrial Single Board Computer - Dual Ethernet - Gateworks Corporation - Single Board Computers

This industrial single board computer is rugged and built in the USA. Featuring industrial temperature ratings, dual ethernet ports, 3 Mini-PCIe Slots and a MIPI-CSI / MIPI-DSI Header.

www.gateworks.com

Lets see where that goes. I would rather spend $1500 bucks of my tax return that way.
Trying to get boards into developers hands.

jammied · Mar 7, 2022

Phishfry said:
I just sent a Dear Jane letter to Gateworks sales. Inquiring about 5 boards I donate to FreeBSD Foundation.
These are the newer i.MX8 version:

Industrial Single Board Computer - Dual Ethernet - Gateworks Corporation - Single Board Computers

This industrial single board computer is rugged and built in the USA. Featuring industrial temperature ratings, dual ethernet ports, 3 Mini-PCIe Slots and a MIPI-CSI / MIPI-DSI Header.

www.gateworks.com

Lets see where that goes. I would rather spend $1500 bucks of my tax return that way.
Trying to get boards into developers hands.

If you obtain them, let me know. Let me know if it the FreeBSD foundation would find it useful for one to make it's way into to my hands to.

Carly Rae Jepsen said:
Call me, maybe?

Phishfry · Mar 7, 2022

Maybe if you got ${username}@freebsd.org
You might need to give Anne the secret handshake too.

jammied · Mar 7, 2022

Phishfry said:
Maybe if you got ${username}@freebsd.org
You might need to give Anne the secret handshake too.

Does that essentially mean, when I become an official BSD developer?

Phishfry · Mar 7, 2022

For charity I like to give to Foundations directly. Let them vet. I have United Way deducted directly from my check.
They might skim some but they are verifying for me.
No offense.
I laugh at the Santa with a kettle too. I give to the United Way.
Bums in the median strumming for money. I give to the United Way.

I just don't have time for due diligence so I hire a clearinghouse.
But seriously. There are only a handful of Arm developers doing alot of the work from what I can tell.
vadot@, gonzo@, ian@, andriry@.
On top of that a major war affects probably half. Could not even send a board with any hopes of it arriving.

Look at IRC. Maybe 100 people in bsdmips. We have a skeleton crew. They deserve some appreciation.

jammied · Mar 7, 2022

Yeah, we could definitely do without the political concerns to top everything...

We do have those concerns though and we have to account for them unfortunately...