Should FreeBSD port NetBSD's NVMM?

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ekvz

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There is no need for a ton of options. A single one that works well is fully practical. Diverting resources to make each of the resulting options weaker is bad and so is bloat.

FreeBSD's pf is out of sync with OpenBSD's pf, and I thought there may have been talk of removing it or moving it to ports(?). I'm not sure where ipf sits now, but there was talk of removing it.

That's a good example. I have been wondering what's wrong with ipfw since the day i came back to FreeBSD.
 

Phishfry

Beastie's Twin

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What the OP needs to ask himself is- What does NVMM do that Bhyve does not?
That is what I would ask myself if I was a developer.

We have Bhyve and Xen.
Why do we need more options? We have two perfectly functioning tools for Virtualization.
Why would a developer want to add a third?
Is this a numbers game? The OS with the most choices win?
We have limited manpower and need to focus on refining the choices we have.
 

ekvz

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The OS with the most choices win?

Not for me. Options (at least for such basic functionality) irritate me.

We have limited manpower and need to focus on refining the choices we have.

That doesn't necessarily has anything to do with available manpower. Bloat doesn't make a good system even if you have the resources to build it.
 

Phishfry

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I have never understood why it is a big deal that FreeBSD's pf is out of sync with OpenBSD version.
A firewalls job is to filter packets. What exactly is our older pf version missing? Does it not filter packets?
 

Mjölnir

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I stopped clicking Thanks & Like ... it just doesn't make sense on any post... When I'm bored, I use the forums search facilities and randomly select one of gh_*'s threads... I didn't figure out his account name on reddit or such, because I'm not visiting such 🤣
 
OP
D

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I stopped clicking Thanks & Like ... it just doesn't make sense on any post... When I'm bored, I use the forums search facilities and randomly select one of gh_*'s threads... I didn't figure out his account name on reddit or such, because I'm not visiting such 🤣
I named my nick name according to Ublock Origin.

gh_origin => Ublock Origin
gh_legacy => Ublock Origin Legacy

There is only two of gh_*'s and I didn't create them at the same time. Remember, gh_origin was lost because lost both of it's password and the email used to register it. So the sysctl account came to existent. The gh_origin and sysctl account was merged into sysctl and this sysctl was deleted by the admins. So this gh_legacy account came to existent. Don't said like I'm a troll with multiple accounts to spam, I'm not. And I don't have a Reddit account, just reading.
 
OP
D

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What the OP needs to ask himself is- What does NVMM do that Bhyve does not?
NVMM utilize qemu with qemu-nvmm, it's a complete emulator just like Linux KVM which also utilized qemu, but our Bhyve is just a hypervisor and not a full emulator. I would ask for something like qemu-bhyve first but I don't think the developers will care, they are busy keep their KISS principle. You asked what NVMM can and Bhyve can't. Very simple, a good console. Our nmdm console is shite. And a real graphics hardware emulation. Remember we are still relying on EFI framebuffer to have graphics. And it sucks.
 

Alexander88207

Aspiring Daemon

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And VirtualBox 5.x is EOL and VirtualBox 6.1.x is not yet in ports.

I guess we had this topic already. A PR for this is already open and you can contribute to it. If not then do not complain. As long as there are no dangerous security gaps everything is ok :)
 

jmos

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And a real graphics hardware emulation. Remember we are still relying on EFI framebuffer to have graphics. And it sucks.
According to my documents bhyve wasn't designed as an emulator at all, but as a hypervisor. If you need an emulator, don't use bhyve.

VMs are classically used for servers and test environments - not for playing games. In my opinion the output via VNC (next to shell) is absolutely sufficient; If I want to use another operating system with a graphical user interface in relevant depth, a native OS makes more sense than a VM.

And: I don't feel called to change this situation, nor do I think it is appropriate to say to those few who gave me bhyve at the expense of their spare time "do more, that was too little"; In my opinion the word "we" is inappropriate in relation to non-commercial open source projects: There is no "we" as long as you don't contribute.
 
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Are you sure you are a Linux user?
I used Linux before Reddit ever popular in my country. And even now, it's not as popular as the native alternatives 😑
 
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D

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And: I don't feel called to change this situation, nor do I think it is appropriate to say to those few who gave me bhyve at the expense of their spare time "do more, that was too little";
And you still think the open source projects are done by developers on their spare time? 🤪 How naive! All of them are backed by commercial company. Even your Bhyve is developed by Pluribus Networks, a company, not a group of developers on their spare time!
 

Hakaba

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«Should FreeBSD port NetBSD's NVM?»
No.
FreeBSD is not a port maintenance project.
But if you want to port nvm you can, FreeBSD accept new port in the ports list.
Why an another thread like this ? The answer will never vary as this is the organisation of the project.
if you are facing issue or need changes when you port a specific tool, you need to contact the core team, but it is a mailing list and the forum is not the right place to this kind of debate.
 

ekvz

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A PR for this is already open and you can contribute to it.

He is probably to busy porting this NVMM thing.

And a real graphics hardware emulation. Remember we are still relying on EFI framebuffer to have graphics. And it sucks.

Can you enlighten me what's so particularly great about qemus graphics capabilities? It has a bunch of dusty chipsets that are more or less good enough for 2D but beyond that? OK, there seems to some recent development concerning virtio but that's still somewhat bleeding edge even on Linux (aside from the fact that noone cares). Besides the (by a wide margin) biggest market for virtualization is headless and probably wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if there was no graphics support at all.

I am not saying that your line of thinking is invalid but just that (as you might have noticed by the generally dismissive responses) that what you want seems to be pretty much an edge case and "I wan't feature X which might be mostly redundant and non trivial on top of that but..." usually doesn't work there. You either need to convince people how it's going to be useful for them (which seems rather hopeless in this case) or do it yourself.

And you still think the open source projects are done by developers on their spare time? 🤪 How naive! All of them are backed by commercial company. Even your Bhyve is developed by Pluribus Networks, a company, not a group of developers on their spare time!

A lot of the work is in fact done by unpaid volunteers. When companies sponsor a certain part of development or open their own code it's done for a reason. Namely to gain the support of all those unpaid volunteers. A handfull of large projects might be able to somewhat survive purely on the money of some sponsoring company but everything else in Open Source would collapse pretty quickly when you take the volunteers out of the equation and those smaller projects would very likely take most bigger ones down with them as the ecosystem becomes non functional.
 

jmos

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And you still think the open source projects are done by developers on their spare time? 🤪 How naive! All of them are backed by commercial company.
…so you think "we" can demand a company to invest more to get you satisfied? And yes, I'm not only thinking that there are numerous private driven open source projects: I know that ;)
 

kpedersen

Son of Beastie

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Even your Bhyve is developed by Pluribus Networks, a company, not a group of developers on their spare time!

You are incorrect. Pluribus only ported it to some niche platforms. The original Bhyve at least now is very much written by FreeBSD developers in their spare time. I don't even believe their work is sponsored (the best technology rarely is unfortunately).

Actually I don’t care if it’s EOL. As I said, it works fine for me.

Exactly. The only thing you really miss out on in 6.0 is more pointless integration with Oracle's "Cloud".

If we renamed VirtualBox 5 to FunctionalBox and gave it an arbitrary version number of 10, is it still EOL? I don't think so. XD
 

shkhln

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The original bhyve has something to do with NetApp, although it's not clear if NetApp was actually using bhyve for anything.
 

kpedersen

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and this sysctl was deleted by the admins. So this gh_legacy account came to existent.

Normally that suggests the admins feel you should get off your computer, go for a walk and chill out for a few weeks before re-attempting to interact with the community.

The original bhyve has something to do with NetApp, although it's not clear if NetApp was actually using bhyve for anything.
Some sources say it "was shelved" by NetApp before they used it commercially.
https://klarasystems.com/articles/bhyve-the-freebsd-hypervisor/
At least they opened it before sending it to the grave ;)
It seems that it was a Friday hobby project for a few developers.
 
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