Pedantic discussion (split off from 'Questions about installing, removing packages')

[Cath O'Deray]

I should have put gatekeeping in context, sorry. Here's what atoponce wrote:

"They are the same. Feel free to use either and ignore the gatekeepers."

I do like correct use of words, pool for example – the screenshot attached is from a report that I created and reopened.

(I could have chosen a much more contentious example of correctness … the pool example is sufficiently pedantic.)

 

[SirDice]

The distinction between folder and directory is completely arbitrary and interchangeable. It even says so in the referenced stackoverflow arguments, and the wikipedia article. There's no clear definition of what constitutes a 'folder' and what isn't. One of the base arguments is graphical representation (GUI) vs. textual (console). But that goes out the window too, does tree(1) show folders or directories? It's a graphical representation, so it's folders then? Or a "folder" only containing documents. Thus a directory showing only text documents is a 'folder'? Or the argument that it represents on disk files? Somebody actually nitpicked on that, what about /proc? Or /dev? Neither are showing actual files, they're both completely virtual. According to that definition they are folders?

That's why I initially deleted drhowarddrfine post, chastising the OP for using folder instead of directories. Because it is based on a completely arbitrary definition. He then waited until I was offline to post it again, and the thread took off in this pedantic discussion based on utterly arbitrary definitions on what constitutes a folder or directory. They are interchangeable nowadays. Learn to live with it.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

SirDice I did not chastise him but made a note.

If you read all the answers in the SO post as I suggested, you would have noted that there are some very clear distinctions between the two.

 

[SirDice]

I did not chastise him but made a note.

Just a note about an irrelevant and arbitrary distinction, that added nothing to the thread. It didn't clarify or remove any ambiguity from anything that was already understood. That's why I deleted the original post. But you didn't get the hint. And you purposefully posted it again. Why? The only reason I could come up with is the law of triviality, some might even call it trolling.

you would have noted that there are some very clear distinctions between the two.

Do they though? I have read them, the only thing that became clear was the lack of a good definition without a bunch of preconceptions. You do realize the concept of a "directory" in and of itself is already a representation? Or do you think that's how things are actually stored in file/folder/drawer systems, virtual or not? A bunch of analogies have been given, but analogies are just that, a VERY simplified way of trying to convey a concept.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

And you purposefully posted it again. Why?

As a reply to others. Or did you miss that, too?

Just a note about an irrelevant and arbitrary distinction

For something you think is so, there sure are a lot of people who understand the distinctions and definitions..

Some people just want to lazy load everything. I made my point and I know people will learn from it. End of story.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

The original topic – Questions about installing, removing packages – described two problems.

my point

detracted from those problems, so,

A profile post might have been a good place

for your point, which had been made more than once before.

If not a repeat on your profile, then (to avoid ongoing irrelevant chatter) you could have linked to one or both of the previous chats.

July 2021, page one of a discussion in the off-topic sub-forum:

My original tongue-in-cheek reply was to the comment about the average Linux user not knowing what a ssh key is. It's also true of users who call directories "folders".

– chat continues on page two.

I know people will learn from it. End of story.

The slightly larger story involves people not always adhering to your point.

October 2021, ziomario asked:

• How to show the content of the folder where I have mounted the linux/ubuntu (ext4) data partition using a graphical desktop manager ?

You added:

Note that on Unix, BSD--and Linux, too--they are "directories" and not the Windows concept of "folders" which is not the same thing.

– and where some of what followed was misleading, you didn't correct it.

This year, ziomario sought help with something else:

• Mount a remote folder with sshfs on the /etc/fstab file without asking for the password

There followed another disagreement about the word folder, ziomario didn't respond (maybe because he had seen the argument before), a DistroWatch contributor made a comment that was comparable to SirDice's comment about interchangeability.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

Cath O'Deray Do you need me to go off on you and your mental instability again? You are making this a personal attack and carrying this thread on when I already made it clear that I'm done with this.

 

[VladiBG]

I think Wikipedia describe it very good with example of the e-mail folder compared to a filesystem structured directory.

Directory (computing) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Folder metaphor​

The name folder, presenting an analogy to the file folder used in offices, and used in a hierarchical file system design for the Electronic Recording Machine, Accounting (ERMA) Mark 1 published in 1958[5] as well as by Xerox Star,[6] is used in almost all modern operating systems' desktop environments. Folders are often depicted with icons which visually resemble physical file folders.

There is a difference between a directory, which is a file system concept, and the graphical user interface metaphor that is used to represent it (a folder).[original research?] For example, Microsoft Windows uses the concept of special folders to help present the contents of the computer to the user in a fairly consistent way that frees the user from having to deal with absolute directory paths, which can vary between versions of Windows, and between individual installations. Many operating systems also have the concept of "smart folders" or virtual folders that reflect the results of a file system search or other operation. These folders do not represent a directory in the file hierarchy. Many email clients allow the creation of folders to organize email. These folders have no corresponding representation in the filesystem structure.

If one is referring to a container of documents, the term folder is more appropriate. [citation needed] The term directory refers to the way a structured list of document files and folders are stored on the computer. The distinction can be due to the way a directory is accessed; on Unix systems, /usr/bin/ is usually referred to as a directory when viewed in a command line console, but if accessed through a graphical file manager, users may sometimes call it a folder.

 

[Crivens]

Ok, this seems to detoriate into another slapping competition.
This is strike two.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

There is no point in your continuing this thread.

You wanted me – me alone – to not speak in a public forum, as if it was your forum where you might have been a chairperson with such authority.

When you choose to make things personal: please, also be reasonable.

I normally lend weight to an opening poster. In this case you're the OP largely because you aggravated a moderator,

My point is made and everyone else has moved on including me.

Other people, not me, chose to continue from that point; you did not have the last word on page one.

I already made it clear that I'm done with this.

Please see above.

personal attack

When an argument does not go your way, it's not necessarily a personal attack.

mental

I can't recall whether I objected when you once described me as autistic, I'm fairly certain that a moderator objected.

With regard to someone else,

… an autistic, highly arrogant guy who would correct your speech or terminology as you talked …

---

instability

It's true that my style of writing in The FreeBSD Forums occasionally differs, wildly, from my style in /r/freebsd … a person might reasonably think of this as slightly unpredictable, but I don't accept that I'm mentally unstable.

Newsflash: I know myself better than you do.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

This is strike two.

Sorry, crossed paths by seconds. I didn't see it. Delete my previous comment, if you like.

 

[Crivens]

News flash: This is a public holiday weekend which I want to spend with my kids. There are ways to make sure no bickering is going on during these times. But I don't want to spoil your imagination.

 

[blackhole]

The "folder" term annoys me a little, though I have always understood it as a synonym for a directory, which came about in early GUIs as a means of helping users to understand how files are stored and accessed.

In my view it hasn't helped much, or if it did, things have now degenerated further with certain OS (such as Windows) to the extent that many average PC users have no real understanding of the concepts of files and directories anyway. I speak to people regularly who refer to a directory as a "file" and everything else as an "icon" or an "app". So even "folder" seems to be in danger of going extinct. The OS vendors have worked very hard for the last few decades to dumb things down.

 

[Champion]

I think Wikipedia describe it very good with example of the e-mail folder compared to a filesystem structured directory.

Directory (computing) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Folder metaphor​

The name folder, presenting an analogy to the file folder used in offices, and used in a hierarchical file system design for the Electronic Recording Machine, Accounting (ERMA) Mark 1 published in 1958[5] as well as by Xerox Star,[6] is used in almost all modern operating systems' desktop environments. Folders are often depicted with icons which visually resemble physical file folders.

There is a difference between a directory, which is a file system concept, and the graphical user interface metaphor that is used to represent it (a folder).[original research?] For example, Microsoft Windows uses the concept of special folders to help present the contents of the computer to the user in a fairly consistent way that frees the user from having to deal with absolute directory paths, which can vary between versions of Windows, and between individual installations. Many operating systems also have the concept of "smart folders" or virtual folders that reflect the results of a file system search or other operation. These folders do not represent a directory in the file hierarchy. Many email clients allow the creation of folders to organize email. These folders have no corresponding representation in the filesystem structure.

If one is referring to a container of documents, the term folder is more appropriate. [citation needed] The term directory refers to the way a structured list of document files and folders are stored on the computer. The distinction can be due to the way a directory is accessed; on Unix systems, /usr/bin/ is usually referred to as a directory when viewed in a command line console, but if accessed through a graphical file manager, users may sometimes call it a folder.

It appears as though a folder is an abstraction [a more general type] of a directory, where all directories are folders, but not all folders are directories. I don't think it's wrong to consider a directory a folder, but it may be wrong to consider all folders directories.

...All rabbits are lagomorphs, but not all lagomorphs are rabbits [hares and pikas for example]. ?

If someone describes a directory as a folder, that wouldn't be wrong, but certain types of folders cannot be described as directories, such as virtual folders.

 

[astyle]

Just chiming in - I'd like to point out that there can be some confusion when trying to translate a specific computer-related term into a foreign language - at least that used to be the case in the past.

A 'directory' can mean a 'listing of information' like a listing of phone numbers in a book.

A 'folder' can mean a 'manila folder for holding separate documents'.

Usually, context is enough to understand what the word means. But try translating the word 'directory' into Spanish, for example, without context!

Google Translate picked 'directorio' as a plausible word. But translating directorio back into English yields different meanings, like 'directions', 'regulations', 'order', and more. Getting a list to look something up is very different from getting directions from your boss to do something.

Same with 'folder'... as a funny and pedantic example: "I fold my laundry, so I am a folder".

It does kind of repeat repeat the point made in post #13 of this discussion, this was my attempt to re-phrase it a way that hopefully demonstrates my take on this: As a specialist/expert, its fun to know the fine points of a definition of a given term, and to know when it's appropriate to emphasize one such point or another. But (as an oversimplification) an expert is an expert because they can take all kinds of input, understand what the problem is, and give the correct solution anyway.

 

[blackhole]

To those who see the terms as fully synonymous: I give you the / "folder"?

Does thay sound right? To me it doesn't.

I would suggest that every directory outside of /usr/home is automatically considered a directory. Almost all directories within /usr/home would also be directories. Then a few directories for storing users' personal files may also be referred to as "folders", such as "Downloads" or "Documents".

I would still say that "folder" is just another symptom of the general dumbing down, but it's no where near the worst.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

A 'directory' can mean a 'listing of information' like a listing of phone numbers in a book.

Exactly. When someone says "directory" without context, my first thought is this:

– where a single directory was shelved to the right. Maybe two directories, although I don't remember a Yellow Pages in our local phone box in those days. I do remember tuppence for a phone call, and tuppence for a bag of crisps.

Our drive had a Ford Anglia, a Ford Cortina, and so on. Fast-forward fifty-something years: I can't remember when I last saw a phone directory, but still: that's exactly what comes to mind when someone says the word.

True: I can't mount a computer drive in a manilla folder.

Neither can I mount a computer drive in a telephone directory

 

[astyle]

Now you can, Cath O'Deray

?
(Also, see https://www.etsy.com/market/floppy_disk_book)

 

[SirDice]

I didn't expect or wanted Graham to pile on. But he probably smelled blood and went for it. What was expected was several people coming up with the various definitions, all different, and nobody has a clear definition of the differences. Everybody is trying to argue towards a preconceived notion there MUST be a difference. Yet nobody seems to be aware there is no difference. On the Amiga they were called 'drawers', can't remember where but I distinctly remember an OS or application calling them "maps". Directories, folders, maps, drawers, it's conceptually all the same thing, just a different name for it. But that doesn't seem to sink in.