Other HDD reliability stats for 5 years

Which HDD manufacturer, in your opinion, is less reliable on average?

  • Seagate

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • WDC

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Hitachi

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Toshiba

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Samsung

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • HGST

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maxtor

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12
Report from the Linux users based on 60k different computers (~1k new computers each month):

HDDRel.png


The picture shows relative number of hosts with bad SMARTs depending on the drive vendor (Seagate is less reliable).

I hope we can get the same stats for BSD soon with the help of https://www.freshports.org/sysutils/hw-probe/

UPDATE 1: All lines are shown relative to the leader (Seagate), that's why Seagate is 100% on the chart.
UPDATE 2: See my comment below explaining how to understand the data on the chart.
 
Somehow I doubt dead disks diligently produce SMART reports ;) Seagate being "100% unreliable" all the time requires an explanation as well.
 
First, superficial procedural problems: Maxtor has not made disks in many years; they were bought by Seagate in the early 2000s, and shut down as a separate brand and as a separate engineering operation. Samsung is somewhat similar, there have been no separately engineered/manufactured Samsung disks in about 8 years (although the Samsung brand name is used heavily to sell Seagate disks, in particular in geographic areas where name recognition is important). So information about those two brands is not relevant to purchases made today. Hitachi and HGST is the same thing; while Hitachi's disk drive business is now owned by WD, the engineering and manufacturing is still separate to some extent (expect it to merge over time). Toshiba disks are actually pretty rare in the field, and I doubt that 20% of responders actually own a Toshiba disk that they can have opinions on (I have only seen a handful of them professionally, and I work on this field).

The more serious problem is that the response rates indicate that the answers are partly based on historic data. That's the only way to explain Maxtor. But for evaluating what to do today, historic data is not useful. For example, the worst hard drive failure I ever experienced was a CDC 80MB disk drive: the heads became so wedged between the platters that the field service technician had to use a hacksaw to remove the head assembly, then a hammer and screwdriver to bang the heads out of the platters, and only afterwards was able to remove the disk pack (and all the data was destroyed, even though the disk packs were intended to be removable). This was in the mid 80s, on a VAX. Should this reflect badly on today's disk drive purchases? Note that CDC hasn't made disks since the 1990s, and its engineering operation (which later became Imprimis and was absorbed into Seagate, where it is the core of its enterprise disk drive group) has a great reputation. OK, my example is deliberately ludicrous (the technology of 35 years ago has nothing to do with today's reliability), but the answers for Maxtor and Seagate are barely more relevant.

The real problem is this: Is there any data to back up people's opinion? Why should I care what people think? Just as one example: If this were based on real data, the answer for Samsung and Seagate should be the same, as they are the same hardware, but there is a factor of 5 difference between them! We have access to real data. The only publicly available dataset of significant size is what Backblaze publishes, and the conclusion it gives is quite different from the users say here (although it agrees somewhat, the failure rates on average for Seagate are higher than for Hitachi/WD, but not massively so). The real answer lies in this: the big disk drive customers have very accurate data on disk drive reliability in house (and I have helped create and curate such data during my career). Today, over 90% of all disk drives are bought and deployed by less than a dozen customers (the FAANG and their Chinese counterparts, plus the big computer companies such as IBM/HP/Oracle). Those dozen big customers know exactly how reliable disk drives really are. So if you look at their purchasing behavior (which is easy to measure, just look at the published annual reports of Seagate and WD), you will see what real customers think about real disk drives. And it is clear from that data that in spite of the uninformed emotional opinions of small-scale users, Seagate disk drives remain a good value proposition.

Or in a nutshell: This data is fascinating as a measurement of consumer sentiment, of a particularly interesting self-selected group of consumers, but it has nothing to do with engineering reality. I think the real users of this data need to be the marketing departments of WD and Seagate, and to me this data indicates that Seagate needs to really work on an advertising campaign to burnish its brand image. (Disclaimer: My sister is as very big advertising executive, and no, she does not work for Seagate.)
 
I doubt that it is ok to count consumer grade & professional hardware in the same statistic. In data centers, ideally the disks get replaced before they break. And in the numbers above, I do not see the age of the drives. The average consumer will use a disk device until it starts to complain via SMART. That's most of what we see in these numbers.
 
Yep. Such chart requires a huge knowledge to draw any conclusions. Also I just realized that data on the chart is distorted by the difference in popularity of vendors. So the chart just shows absolute numbers of faulty drives in the world, not a failure rate or even reliability of vendors.

Avg. popularity of HDD vendors for last 5 years is the following:

HDDRel1.png


If we divide numbers on the original chart by the popularity rate, then we can get the following failure rates:

7.5% for WDC
7.8% for Toshiba
8% for Seagate
8.6% for Fujitsu
8.8% for HGST
13.3% for Samsung
13.5% for Hitachi
16.7% for MAXTOR
 
7.5% for WDC
7.8% for Toshiba
8% for Seagate
8.6% for Fujitsu
8.8% for HGST
13.3% for Samsung
13.5% for Hitachi
16.7% for MAXTOR
Maxtor has only been a brand name that Seagate uses for a small line of external drives, marketed in secondary markets. They have Seagate hardware in them. Samsung is a brand that Seagate uses, mostly in Asia, again containing Seagate guts. Significant differences between those three are hard to understand (they might be an effect of different usage patterns depending on geography, or in the case of Samsung-branded drives different assembly plants).

Hitachi and HGST are the same. How can they have different results?

It is generally accepted (and backed by good data) that Hitachi/HGST is more reliable than either Seagate or WD. How come this answer is different?

And finally: 90% of all disks in the world are held by a small number of customers, and do not show up in this statistic. The big computer companies have several orders of magnitude more disks than Backblaze does, and they are already by far the biggest company to publicly release reliability data.

My personal answer is (and sadly remains even with this information): As far as the public is concerned, disk reliability is mostly unknown, with the only glimpse being the Backblaze data.
 
In data centers, ideally the disks get replaced before they break.
Yes and no. Big storage systems do a lot of effort in implementing fault prediction. Using SMART data is one component of that, in particular for SCSI disks, where a disk can actually use SMART to explicitly trigger a PFA fault. There are other fault predictors that are in use, for example the rate of transient errors, or performance aberrations. But: in spite of the best effort of predicting that a disk will fail (or listening to the disk stating that itself), and using that to proactively drain disks and put in replacements, disks do fail in production, and have to be replaced.

There are two really big factors which determine the disk replacement strategy. One is the availability of manpower. Imagine a typical large data center (often bigger than a gym), with hundreds of thousands of disks, of which several fail per day. Just immediately removing and replacing failed disks will keep a staff person busy. Some storage systems find it more efficient to leave failed disks in the system, re-replicate the data elsewhere, and only replace disks once it is efficient to do so. For example, if a 100-disk enclosure has 3 or more failed disks, then send a human, but if it is 1 or 2 disks, then just leave it. This strategy is called FIP or "Fail In Place", and has helped to significantly reduce the operating cost of storage systems. On the other hand, if performance is critical, some users prefer to replace disks as soon as possible. The transition depends a lot on the replacement workflow; for example large data center operators today use robotics to pull enclosures out of racks or disks out of enclosures, with no humans involved until the disk reaches a workbench for analysis; they can replace disks more frequently than data center operators that still rely on humans with lab carts and ladders going down the aisles.

Second, it depends on the contract between the customer and the disk vendor whether it is economically advantageous to replace disks. Large disk customers typically do not send removed disks back to the disk manufacturer for post-mortem and replacement, for a variety of reasons: the handling expenses would be very high (lots of FedEx packages, special software to track where each disk is physically in the logistics chain); used disks probably have sensitive data on them; and the disk manufacturers don't want to stockpile older models for warranty replacement. Instead, warranty replacements are typically handled by discounts and refunding. A typical contract between a large customer and Seagate or WD might look like the following:

Yoyodyne is buying one million disks model 12345ABC at $100 each. These disks have a 5-year warranty, and we expect up to 1% of the disks to fail every year during those 5 years, so Yoyodyne gets a 5% discount at initial purchase and only has to pay $95M up front. If more than 10,000 disks fail in any year of the first 5 years, Yoyodyne can request an additional credit of $100 per disk above the 10K that have failed, but then Yoyodyne has to either submit a dated copy of the SMART output showing that the disk has self-identified as failed, or it has to physically submit the failed disks to the manufacturer for analysis if the disk has failed so hard that SMART output can't be read any longer. For efficiency, warranty evaluation will only be processed in January, for all the disks that failed in the previous year.

And yes, I've been in situations where so many disks failed that lawyers got involved (the WEEKLY failure rate reached 1% for a particular batch of disks), and after some tense negotiations, a lot of money changed hands. And if I remember right, a pallet load of disk drives is between 500 and 2000 disks (depending on packaging), so returning 10K disk drives for warranty evaluation is not something you do casually with a FedEx envelope.
 
In reply to ralphbsz: As I said above, IMHO you can't throw consumer and professional grade hw into the same box. A random sample of 60k should be statistically sound, more or less. But I guess the data showns mostly consumer grade hw. On the differences, as far they are statistically significant (outside the variancy of this survey), we can only guess.
Hitachi and HGST are the same. How can they have different results?
That's the point. The data is like it is. Are you shure? Maybe the firmware is slightly different. Some parts may be different. How many factories to assemble their products do they have? Maybe factory A builds in part C of supplier D, whereas in factory B they build in part E of another supplier. E.g. from the realm of pleasure boat Diesel engines: Until recently, most brands equipped their engines with different external parts from regional suppliers. I.e. a XYZ engine sold in U.S./Caribic was not 100% the same like the same model sold in Europe. This was one of the main reasons for the rise of Yanmar engines: they are 100% the same all over the world, saving cruisers a lot of headache.
 
First, superficial procedural problems: Maxtor has not made disks in many years; they were bought by Seagate in the early 2000s, and shut down as a separate brand and as a separate engineering operation. Samsung is somewhat similar, there have been no separately engineered/manufactured Samsung disks in about 8 years (although the Samsung brand name is used heavily to sell Seagate disks, in particular in geographic areas where name recognition is important).

Wow, that's interesting news. That would mean, one could now buy Samsung drives and actually get Seagate? Is that then certain?

Because, I never came across any part built by Samsung that was not broken.
First Samsung disk I got was at the time when they changed to IDE drives - and while the classic ST-506 drives would need an actual formatting (like SCSI does), these came already formatted, and the manufacturers would also put a FAT filesystem onto them. Then, my merchant said they had these Samsung drives available which already had a filesystem on them - the filesystem was of no use to me because I would run Unix and do a full surface analysis anyway, but the price appeared to be alright.
The problem then came with the surface analysis - because only the outer two third of the disk surface were magnetic and would store data. With FAT filesystem that wouldn't be a problem, because there the disk is filled from the outside in, and at the time when two third of it get full, warranty is usually over.
From that event onwards I try to avoid Samsung, but this is not always possible. When I ordered a replacement DVD writer, although I had ordered LG, the mailorder shop sent me Samsung without asking. Same thing: after two years warranty is over, after three years it ceased to handle DVD and is now only a CD drive.
Same with regECC mem. Is it supposed to be Kingston, and that should be good. But when looking closely, the individual little chips say "Samsung". And so, one is already dead. (I never encountered broken memory before. Thought they do not break.)
 
Because, I never came across any part built by Samsung that was not broken.

Well, for the record, I have one working Samsung HDD. That's not unusual.

Same with regECC mem. Is it supposed to be Kingston, and that should be good. But when looking closely, the individual little chips say "Samsung". And so, one is already dead. (I never encountered broken memory before. Thought they do not break.)

It's not possible to buy a RAM module with Kingston's chips — they don't produce them. (Never did.)
 
Well, for the record, I have one working Samsung HDD. That's not unusual.

Well then I suggest You do a full test read...

It's not possible to buy a RAM module with Kingston's chips — they don't produce them. (Never did.)
I have one here. Chips are stamped "Value RAM" only, with no further hint of a manufacturer.
So, while Kingston likely does not have their own manufacturing plant, they may have chips made per order, with their own labelling.
 
First Samsung disk I got was at the time when they changed to IDE drives - and while the classic ST-506 drives would need an actual formatting (like SCSI does), these came already formatted, and the manufacturers would also put a FAT filesystem onto them. Then, my merchant said they had these Samsung drives available which already had a filesystem on them - the filesystem was of no use to me because I would run Unix and do a full surface analysis anyway, but the price appeared to be alright.
That must have been ages ago, probably before 2000; I don't quite remember when IDE disks replaced ST-506 disks, probably 1990 or 1995. Seagate only acquired Samsung's hard drive unit in ~2010, about 20 or 15 years after your experience. For a while, Seagate was unable to fully integrate Samsung into its manufacturing/engineering flow, due to both anti-trust and national security concerns (both in the US and in China), but as of a few years ago, Seagate and Samsung hard disks are very closely related.

Same with regECC mem. Is it supposed to be Kingston, and that should be good. But when looking closely, the individual little chips say "Samsung". And so, one is already dead. (I never encountered broken memory before. Thought they do not break.)
Kingston has never been a memory chip manufacturer. They have always bought chips on the open market, and assembled them into DIMMs. There are relatively few memory chip manufacturers, and as far as I know, Samsung is the largest one in the world; the only other two that are still relevant are SK Hynix (the former Hyundai) and Micron. As far as I know, all the Japanese manufacturers (NEC, Toshiba, Mitsubishi...) died one by one, all taken over by Micron. And there is nothing particularly wrong with either Samsung and Hynix DRAM, it is used by the best (and US-based) computer manufacturers too. If you want to be a DRAM "locovore", I recommend Crucial brand DIMMs, as they use Micron chips (Crucial is the consumer-facing brand of Micron, for DIMMs and SSDs).
 
That must have been ages ago, probably before 2000; I don't quite remember when IDE disks replaced ST-506 disks, probably 1990 or 1995.

Yes between 90 and 95. This was when Samsung just appeared on the market.

Kingston has never been a memory chip manufacturer. They have always bought chips on the open market, and assembled them into DIMMs. There are relatively few memory chip manufacturers, and as far as I know, Samsung is the largest one in the world; the only other two that are still relevant are SK Hynix (the former Hyundai) and Micron. As far as I know, all the Japanese manufacturers (NEC, Toshiba, Mitsubishi...) died one by one, all taken over by Micron. And there is nothing particularly wrong with either Samsung and Hynix DRAM, it is used by the best (and US-based) computer manufacturers too.
There is certainly nothing wrong with components failing after some 3-5 years, as people are supposed to throw away their stuff after that time, anyway.
 
I'd say one of the most distinctive topics in micro-electronics is not about the manufacturer, but how thoroughly it's tested & labeled according to the test results, not the intended entities of the product. There're always some bad gates on a chip's die wafer. Maybe this is the the extra value you get & pay for brands like Kingston. EDIT As shkhln points out below, you may end up paying for the feel good factor & dirty marketing tricks only...
 
It boggles my mind people still perceive Kingston as a good brand. This self-proclaimed "largest independent memory (module) manufacturer" is average at best and kind of scammy.
 
It boggles my mind people still perceive Kingston as a good brand. This self-proclaimed "largest independent memory (module) manufacturer"

If that is so, then I think You should fix wikipedia, which is the origin of this scam and provides independent (fake-)sources.

The other thing about Kingston is, this is still not one of these corps that only exist as a brand name and a number of shares to be arbitrarily moved around between stakeholders. That there not only is a founding owner, but also he had actually studied the profession of electrical engineering (at a very respectable university), well, that adds a bit to the storyline...

is average at best and kind of scammy.

That report appears to be six years old, and mentions something I noticed as well, and wrote about here: two years later, the same series of storage appears to no longer be writeable 800 times, but instead only 250 times.
 
Wikipedia describes Kingston Tech as "the largest independent producer of DRAM memory modules" - so if that's a scam, it should probably be fixed at that place first.
 
Again, this is just a phrase from Kingston's press releases. Wikipedia simply repeats it. (Wikipedia only cares about sources and not fact-checking!) The claim itself is kind of truthful, Kingston sells a lot of modules after all (and we have no idea what "independent" even means in this context), but the real aim there is to confuse the reader into thinking that Kingston also manufactures the chips.
 
Wikipedia describes Kingston Tech as "the largest independent producer of DRAM memory modules" - so if that's a scam, it should probably be fixed at that place first.
That quote is probably correct. And irrelevant.

Let's analyze the DRAM market. About 80%-90% of all computers are in internet-scale data centers (FAANG and their counterparts in China). Those customers don't buy DIMMs on the open market, and in particular not from Kingston. They instead work with the chip makers (Samsung, Micron, ...) and assembly houses (Foxconn, Jabil, Solectron, ...) to have their logistics and pipeline completely under control. Of the remaining 10-20% of computer in the world, a large fraction is bought from enterprise vendors (IBM, Oracle, HPE, Fujitsu ...), and again, the DIMMs don't come from the merchant market, but from tightly controlled supply lines. Of the machines that people actually use as human interface devices (phones/tablets and laptops), the overwhelming majority come from a small number of vendors (Apple, Dell, HP, Huawei, ...), and they are often not even openable (you can't add or replace a DIMM in a Macbook). That leaves a vanishingly small fraction of do-it-yourselfers and small consultants / small business users. Probably less than 1% of the computer market, perhaps 0.1%. It is quite possible that Kingston is the largest supplier of DIMMs to that vanishingly small market.

Furthermore, anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. Most likely, that article was written and edited by a Kingston staff person. But I would assume that they are smart enough to not make outright false statements there, that tends to lead to lawsuits.
 
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