Ok, so you can't seem to recursively use quotes. I'll just add a small description about the context to keep everything in place.
jrm said:
I feel ambivalent too. On the one hand it's controversial stuff people have been discussing for a long time and it's bound to offend some, but on the other hand it's important and I feel like an ostrich burying my head in the sand if I ignore it.
Yups, my thoughts exactly. And quite frankly; if there's ever a community I'd feel comfortable in discussing topics like these its this one. I doubt you'll see more people in one community which have no problem agreeing that they disagree on something, and that's something unheard of in other places.
[re:
People are the root of evil]
jrm said:
I agree, but different systems certainly promote/minimize different evils.
True, but when you go over the current systems which are in place then I can't really come to any other conclusion that they're all flawed in the end. Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if some of them will eventually get replaced by other, better, ways. But I'm also sure that actually doing so won't be very easy either.
Yet the fun thing (actually it's quite sad IMO) is that I'd sooner see that happening in so called "lesser civilized" countries (at least lesser according to Western media or due to plain ignorance) than the so called modern ones.
For example; one of the former Eastern European countries has embraced the Internet to such extend that most of the government uses it. Citizens can almost literally follow meetings or votes taking place in the government because if it isn't streamed then soon as they're done it's usually all made available on the governments website on the Internet.
I don't recall the name from mind, but they are so depended on the Internet that an attack on their government website actually caused a major panic because it also directly affected their news media.
When compared to my country of Holland those guys are
miles ahead. Our government invests heavily in a rather obscure company to keep their websites secure ("DigiNotar"), and when it turns out that the company got overrun due to
extremely poor management it (the government) even goes as far as forcing Microsoft to postpone their update which would render the DigiNotar certificates invalid; only because our government was afraid that some of their websites "might stop working".
Who cares if your citizens are now under a real threat of getting swindled on websites which a computer illiterate can't recognize as being fake anymore because all the security certificates will look completely valid? (whoops, that was somewhat of a sneer
).
[re:
People abusing the system]
jrm said:
This is where the system has to impose limits on the individual for the benefit of the whole. Where is the balance between tyranny and freedom? Is there a simple, constant solution?
Good question, there isn't. What one calls tyranny others call freedom at times.
Something I learned from a good friend, something which totally baffled me, and I'll probably remember that for the rest of my live. I've spend a lot of years on IRC and met quite a few people because of it (most online, some in 'Real Life' too). Amongst which someone I consider to be a good friend who lives in Egypt. Through him I came into contact with a guy living in Kuwait and that contact lasted too, ironically enough thanks to a Dutch comedy show called "Farce Majeur" which once released a "political critical" song called "Koeweit, Koeweit, Koeweit" (that's "Kuwait" in Dutch). Long offtopic story
Alas; ever since the tensions rose between the US and Iraq I also kept in contact with them and shared the information which we got over here through "Western media" (local Dutch news, CNN, German news, etc.) regarding the situation over there. And they shared the stuff they got through local channels with me. Let's just say that more than often a lot of information we got over here wasn't as complete as it could have been.
But regarding tyrannies.. I was kind of baffled to learn that even though Iraq may not have had the kind of freedom as we would come to expect, the citizens did have limitless access to services such as healthcare which were all funded by the state. If you had a health problem you could go to a hospital and it didn't matter if you were wealthy or poor; you got treated either way.
The last thing I'd expected to learn about an evil tyranny. I guess I somewhat expected a situation comparable to Africa; where many ruler(s) get wealthier and more than often literally let the people in their country starve.
jrm said:
Perhaps as important as the system is the adherence to the spirit of the system by the people. A system that sounds perfect in theory will never work if the people don't feel the system works for them and they spend a lot of energy working against the system instead of with it.
Well, this is the reason I like to watch Anime at times. A lot of them dive into somewhat heavier subjects, and sometimes it can be food for thought even though it is all completely fictional.
One of them;
Neon Gensis Evangelion (which also happens to be one of my favourites) it is hinted that the government of their city ("Tokyo 3") is actually in the end ruled by 3 individual super computers which each approach a topic in a different manner, sometimes even leading to dilemma's in the programming which then end up with a vote until a majority is reached.
Of course something totally fictional and simply impossible with the stuff we have now. Still food for thought though in my opinion; the ability to present certain subjects to a body which is completely independent and completely non-bias.
(until someone hacks into the system, covers his tracks and...)
(a little, positive, always smiling, innocent creature). If she becomes a bad person that's because me and my wife were bad parents (but I don't think that will happen).
