Feedback Hub

[poorandunlucky]

You know what I wish FreeBSD had?

A Feedback Hub. It would make it so easy to send out bug reports and such, send and maybe even gather logs, screenshots, etc., and include those...

When I was on Windows 10, I used to love sending bug reports... I felt useful, part of a community, but on FreeBSD, every little component has its own website, its own forums, its own this and that, mailing list, bug report site, and development tracking website... you have to register, you have to figure out how it works, you have to ...

It's a pain.

If we had a Feedback Hub, developers, maintainers, kernel developers, all the FreeBSD people and people whose work ends-up on FreeBSD could so much more easily be informed, kept up to date, and have a realtime overview of the situation, who uses their things, where, on what, exactly, for what purpose, more or less, etc., and when someone says there's a problem, the tool gathers coredumps, logs, traces, asks the right questions, sends it to the right person without bothering a bunch in the process, ...

And I think it could make FreeBSD that much more pleasant to involve, code for, include in projects, think about, etc. I think it could help blow fresh air into the OS's lungs...

Whether you like the current atmosphere is irrelevant, it's obvious there's not quite enough people to really keep everything up to date, neat, and tidy... This could help.

When I have a problem building a port, there's an error in building, there's a loop in dependencies, there's this or that, a program is slow, a program crashes, a this or that... I want to tell someone, at least! If I can't fix it, if I don't know how to contribute it, if I move on and forget about it, I at least want to tell people about it... hopefully they care, hopefully it's meaningful to them, hopefully I'm not bothering them...

This could be a big help to everyone. I really wish it had something like that, and I don't think it would be very hard to make, but I really have no idea how things go, the way people work, who does what, when, how, why, etc... Somebody more involved in the community, I guess somebody preferably neutral, and friendly, who knows everyone, and has a lot of experience might be interested... I don't know how to code very well, either, but that's probably not very hard to find around here...

I just think it would be an awesome little program... much better than e-mail, that's for sure!

Maybe they're too scared to get the real picture, though... I wouldn't be, I don't think it's that bad, and there's the learning curve, knowing how to prioritize and filter, stuff that repeats itself, stuff that, you know, you fix one thing, and it fixes a dozen down the line, kind of thing? ... After a few weeks, I'm sure people would have gotten the jest of it, everyone would be better able to see what's going on from the kernel to the userbase...

I think it would be Awesome !

 

[ShelLuser]

I think you could be overlooking something here... Keep well in mind that FreeBSD is only the operating system, the base OS. It has no control over any of the software which is provided through the ports collection because that's also not its job. And the very moment you find a bug within FreeBSD you can report that right here, on the Bugzilla bug tracker. I think that's pretty close to such a feedback hub; you can use that to provide information about just about anything going wrong with the system.

But you need to realize that the ports collection is just that: a collection of external software which is developed and maintained by others. At best you can easily run make maintainer which will tell you immediately who maintains the port (for example if there's a problem with the building process) but anything beyond that is depending on the actual project you're using.

This is also what sets FreeBSD apart from the others: when using software on FreeBSD you get to use it as it was intended by its developers. If you set up Apache on FreeBSD you can easily use the official Apache documentation because it will pretty much portrait exactly what you need to do. But not so much on some other Unix-like environments I might add.

Another very important aspect to keep in mind is that there's more than just FreeBSD out there. Most of the software in the ports collection is also used on Linux and (sometimes) other operating systems. That in itself would make a "FreeBSD only feedback hub" pretty much useless because most software isn't dedicated to just FreeBSD, and although it might make it easier on us it would make things a whole lot harder for those developers to keep up. After all: then they'd have to keep track of 2 environments: whatever community or setup they have for their own, and this new FreeBSD hub thingie.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think it's not very feasible. Because of the massive diversity of this whole thing.

But for anything else directly related to FreeBSD you can easily send in your own bug reports.

Now, there's also something else to consider but do keep in mind that I may sound extremely arrogant here. That's not my intent but if that happens... so be it.

Another very important issue is that the easier you make things, so lower the bar to send in bug reports, the more noise you're going to generate. Some things in FreeBSD are easy to do, if you check the documentation and the instructions on how to do it. Fact is that not everyone will follow up on that, and there are plenty of people who'd easily start sending in bug reports for things which aren't a bug at all but only a mere mistake on the part of the user(s). It'll be easier on the users, but now the developers and others have to take up a lot of extra effort in order to wade through all that.

If you make things too easy you're going to generate a lot of noise, it's a given. Sure, if you make it too hard then you won't get much feedback either.

Still, even though I'm pretty used to this system I can't help think that the whole process is still pretty easy on FreeBSD. I mean, you go to the main website, look under the 'support' menu and the bug reporting is right there. That's decently easy to find I think. And a PR is but one web form away.

 

[sidetone]

Windows is a paid for operating system. FreeBSD is free, so it would be a strain on developers to constantly receive feedback for details to fulfill such customer/patron service.

The mailing lists, forum and Bugzilla are adequate for most purposes.

When I have a problem building a port, there's an error in building, there's a loop in dependencies, there's this or that, a program is slow, a program crashes, a this or that... I want to tell someone, at least! If I can't fix it, if I don't know how to contribute it, if I move on and forget about it, I at least want to tell people about it...

That is what the forums, mailing lists, bug reports and emailing the maintainer have been used for. Sometimes you can take your pick on which you want to send that feed back to.

Usually go to Bugzilla if you've pinpointed the problem, or if someone recommends it. Until then, ask questions on the forum, and troubleshoot about a potential bug by asking an informed question on the mailing list. If it involves multiple ports, use the mailing list.

 

[poorandunlucky]

I think you could be overlooking something here... Keep well in mind that FreeBSD is only the operating system, the base OS. It has no control over any of the software which is provided through the ports collection because that's also not its job. And the very moment you find a bug within FreeBSD you can report that right here, on the Bugzilla bug tracker. I think that's pretty close to such a feedback hub; you can use that to provide information about just about anything going wrong with the system.

But you need to realize that the ports collection is just that: a collection of external software which is developed and maintained by others. At best you can easily run make maintainer which will tell you immediately who maintains the port (for example if there's a problem with the building process) but anything beyond that is depending on the actual project you're using.

This is also what sets FreeBSD apart from the others: when using software on FreeBSD you get to use it as it was intended by its developers. If you set up Apache on FreeBSD you can easily use the official Apache documentation because it will pretty much portrait exactly what you need to do. But not so much on some other Unix-like environments I might add.

Another very important aspect to keep in mind is that there's more than just FreeBSD out there. Most of the software in the ports collection is also used on Linux and (sometimes) other operating systems. That in itself would make a "FreeBSD only feedback hub" pretty much useless because most software isn't dedicated to just FreeBSD, and although it might make it easier on us it would make things a whole lot harder for those developers to keep up. After all: then they'd have to keep track of 2 environments: whatever community or setup they have for their own, and this new FreeBSD hub thingie.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think it's not very feasible. Because of the massive diversity of this whole thing.

But for anything else directly related to FreeBSD you can easily send in your own bug reports.

Now, there's also something else to consider but do keep in mind that I may sound extremely arrogant here. That's not my intent but if that happens... so be it.

Another very important issue is that the easier you make things, so lower the bar to send in bug reports, the more noise you're going to generate. Some things in FreeBSD are easy to do, if you check the documentation and the instructions on how to do it. Fact is that not everyone will follow up on that, and there are plenty of people who'd easily start sending in bug reports for things which aren't a bug at all but only a mere mistake on the part of the user(s). It'll be easier on the users, but now the developers and others have to take up a lot of extra effort in order to wade through all that.

If you make things too easy you're going to generate a lot of noise, it's a given. Sure, if you make it too hard then you won't get much feedback either.

Still, even though I'm pretty used to this system I can't help think that the whole process is still pretty easy on FreeBSD. I mean, you go to the main website, look under the 'support' menu and the bug reporting is right there. That's decently easy to find I think. And a PR is but one web form away.

It could be offered as a service, and it could be more accessible... I think one of FreeBSD's main problems these days is flesh... people willing to deal with it, and if you want to find people willing to deal with it, you have to attract the masses, and inspire them, or at least some of them...

Windows is a paid for operating system. FreeBSD is free, so it would be a strain on developers to constantly receive feedback for details to fulfill such customer/patron service.

The mailing lists, forum and Bugzilla are adequate for most purposes.



That is what the forums, mailing lists, bug reports and emailing the maintainer have been used for. Sometimes you can take your pick on which you want to send that feed back to.

Usually go to Bugzilla if you've pinpointed the problem, or if someone recommends it. Until then, ask questions on the forum, and troubleshoot about a potential bug by asking an informed question on the mailing list. If it involves multiple ports, use the mailing list.

I imagined it was made by people who cared about the digital ecosystem and infrastructure... I thought they'd like to know, have a clearer picture than what's offered by solely the people who would give themselves the trouble of going through all those hoops...

You also have to consider that, to keep a customer, you have to make the "new customer experience" a positive one, and learning more about that very experience, and improving it, could be a good investment of time and resources, and devotion; and to do that, you have to get feedback from people who are ready to say goodbye to something that's not working out for them for one reason or another, and one way to do that is to make it easy for them to provide feedback.

You know, nobody gets into something to be the recipient of other people's attitude, and elitism... nor to have to give them a reality check that they're not on top of anything in their deep niche... Maybe one of the reasons Linux has very much eclipsed FreeBSD in recent years, maybe the last decade, is maybe that the Linux people were more inclusive, friendlier, more willing to teach, and share, and learn in cooperation...

I realize Apple essentially took FreeBSD, gave it a fresh look, and made all its money off it, giving back a printer driver... but those are our rules. They are free to make money off it. It's what the BSD license is, it's the difference... If the BSD community maybe not "is", but thinks "maybe it should be" bitter about that, then maybe that's what's making people protective, and defensive in stance, and not as willing to share, and cooperate... I don't know how it was, it's just a hypothesis, really... but if that's the case, then that's a cancer that should be operated on before it grows too large, and maybe generalizes, and becomes terminal...

It's still time to think about the future, but as things are, if things stay the same, I think that maybe in the not so distant future, things could get rather grim, even if there's always chances for sudden reversals... I don't really know who's involved, but community-wise, I'm not really seeing the signs of strong cooperation... or at least, I haven't been able to pick-up on those...

I'm very much an individualist, too, and once my system's going to be stable, I'm probably not going to be on here so much, but while I need help, I'm willing to help, and teach, and learn, in good spirit, being open, and acute, and aware, and do my best, and offer what I can now...

I'm just saying getting massive user feedback could paint an accurate picture of exactly what's going on on the other side of the developers' screens...

And it could be offered as a service to people who make software that's available for FreeBSD, and even simply as an e-mail client to the port maintainers...

The software I paint is just a maybe ncurses-based flowchart/database with a comment field and data collection/extraction that, at the end, could very well put stuff in a database or send an e-mail... it's just a simple piece of software, really... i could probably program it myself, even if it would be a bad idea and it would take me way too long... somebody could program it in less than a day, probably...

 

[rigoletto@]

There is a tool that act quite like the Feedback Hub you are asking for: the #freebsd IRC channel at Freenode. Several users (just a minority actually use the forums) and probably most of the developers are in there, usually connected 24/7. Well, not necessary in the #freebsd (there are many FreeBSD specific channels), but #freebsd is the support channel to start with.

Another thing you may not realized yet, the desired FreeBSD target audience are professionals and serious hobbyists, and not "everyone" (BTW, FreeBSD is not trying to become Linux, Windows, or MacOS).

People from that target audience rather prefer to be able to (i.e.) contact the developers directly when there is a need, something you can't do on Windows, neither MacOS. In Linux you can often find the developer contact and you will often be ignored if they do not know you as "Class A" Linux user, or you will receive a grumpy reply.

While Linux people are "open", their communication channels often end up in retard flames wars discussing subjects they often does not ever actually know a thing, but are just propagating what someone said somewhere, as the only true thing...

 

[poorandunlucky]

There is a tool that act quite like the Feedback Hub you are asking for: the #freebsd IRC channel at Freenode. Several users (just a minority actually use the forums) and probably most of the developers are in there, usually connected 24/7. Well, not necessary in the #freebsd (there are many FreeBSD specific channels), but #freebsd is the support channel to start with.

Another thing you may not realized yet, the desired FreeBSD target audience are professionals and serious hobbyists, and not "everyone" (BTW, FreeBSD is not trying to become Linux, Windows, or MacOS).

People from that target audience rather prefer to be able to (i.e.) contact the developers directly when there is a need, something you can't do on Windows, neither MacOS. In Linux you can often find the developer contact and you will often be ignored if they do not know you as "Class A" Linux user, or you will receive a grumpy reply.

While Linux people are "open", their communication channels often end up in retard flames wars discussing subjects they often does not ever actually know a thing, but are just propagating what someone said somewhere, as the only true thing...

I'm familiar with Freenode, the thing is that usually if I'm not able to solve my problem, nobody can... Like nobody can help me build Firefox, nobody can help me run Cinnamon - the only two things I can't do, even though this is a fresh install of 11.1, and I've build everything from ports (not a light achievement, if I may say so)... It's not very useful, and sometimes frustrating...

I know FreeBSD targets professionals, and the reason for that, I imagine, is that they think that's where the big bucks are, and in the past that was true... If you wanted money in the computer world, you had to think about getting a contract with a big company, or industry... today, that's not true, and if you want to stay afloat, you have to go for microtransactions, licensing, memberships, etc... In FreeBSD's case, it would be good for them to do that just to prove to big companies that they're not out of the game.

As for me, well, I'm always kind of an outlier... I just like to have full control over the machine that sits on my desk and displays information 24/7, holds 98% of what people would call "my life", and occupies or is involved in probably close to 75% of my waking time, and I think people should be able to do what they want from "free software", including make money.

I just associate Linux with a particular kind of crowd, and I don't fit in it. I actually kind of fit in more with you guys, if you don't mind me saying so... it's not even that I want to, really, it's just that if I look at the way I write, and yours, it's kinda similar...

Maybe we should play chess sometime : P

 

[sidetone]

I just associate Linux with a particular kind of crowd, and I don't fit in it.

I haven't thought about it much, but many are somewhat superficial about an OS.

I actually kind of fit in more with you guys, if you don't mind me saying so... it's not even that I want to, really, it's just that if I look at the way I write, and yours, it's kinda similar..

Perhaps there's more in depth discussion here, even when there's disagreement.

 

[poorandunlucky]

I haven't thought about it much, but many are somewhat superficial about an OS.

Perhaps there's more in depth discussion here, even when there's disagreement.

Less unitary, anyway... less like "you're gonna like what I like, or else I'm going to throw a tantrum" kind of shit, going on... less trying to sell a certain flavor of operating system as the one true solution to everyone's needs of yesterday, today, and tomorrow... maybe because we've found it, maybe because they're still very close to Windows and how it was marketed, or how it was received by the general population... Not everybody ever shown an interest in computers, for a lot of people it was just something that was rolled out into their lives, and a lot of the Linux crowd are people who started exploring after the technology implanted itself into their lives... Probably also why you perceive it as being superficial...