Derailing a thread with misinformation

[USerID]

[Mod: Split off from https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-there-a-working-editor-for-f-or-scala.95990/]

They run fine on Windows & Linux.

I read a little of the forum for 2018-2022. --->>> Many people, one way or another, often have an old HDD under their desk with Windows loaded onto it. Such "canned food" saves when something is pressing. I have such "canned food" lying around, but I use it only for "compatibility" with government offices. Believe me, it's completely unrealistic to fight and prove anything to government agencies (tax, statistics service, pension fund, etc.). They only need the format of my request in MS Word, Excel. And this is just the beginning... I often earn extra money as a tutor. Even according to the school curriculum, I can't teach a schoolboy/girl the basics of Python without thonny-py311. Children must show the teacher a screenshot only from thonny. Anything else and deviation from the "program" approved by the Department of Education is heresy. It's not like this everywhere, but that's what I see.
I will never be able to process an Excel or Word file (received from the tax office) in LibreCalc/Writе because their files are simply too complex in structure. Libre will not be able to tame them. It is cheaper for me to get HDD with Windows from a dusty corner, fill in their super-table and get rid of them in 20 minutes. That's it. HDD kicked under the table, let it lie there.
Besides, I saw that system and network administrators of a large Internet provider also use Windows.
But this is not what the girl dreamed about on dark nights! Here is a link where the power of Windows is perfectly shown.
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2002047606/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003055634/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003048668/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2002838940/
Can anyone tell me what kind of hardware stand they have? I give it a like. Thanks.
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003428056/

 

[USerID]

I don't want to spam, but I've had enough. I need to speak out. Photo "2003048668" (see link above). They're on Zoom! Even in Ukraine, Zoom is banned in government agencies! I myself received a letter from the special services when I worked as an admin, which stated that Zoom is not allowed in government agencies, including hospitals!)! Okay. I've finished my indignation. Sorry for the emotions. But this is just nonsense!

 

[SirDice]

Wrong way around mate. Zoom is an American company and is bound by US sanctions.

https://ofac.treasury.gov/sanctions-programs-and-country-information

 

[USerID]

I don't understand. Zoom is an American company. And the Zoom program can be freely used in American cyber services. Am I right?
In our country, Zoom is used mainly by schools and educational institutions.
So, they have everything on the Windows infrastructure? I read a long time ago that they use Content Delivery Network or Content Distribution Network, CDN) from some very famous American corporation somewhere in Boston or something like that. But I don't remember exactly: from Amazon, Microsoft or someone else...
And by the way, the employees work under the "admin" account (photo 2002047606). C:\Users\Public... They didn't even delete the music and movie directories by default...

 

[SirDice]

So, they have everything on the Windows infrastructure?

You're jumping to conclusions based on partial information.

And by the way, the employees work under the "admin" account (photo 2002047606).

Did you ever consider those pictures may have been staged? You know, the public relations kind of pictures. Did you really think they would show exactly what they're using with actual (probably secret) information?

They didn't even delete the music and movie directories by default...

Hey, IT, I need a computer to look cool for a photo op. Sure, here's a blank PC with a bog standard Windows install you can use.

 

[USerID]

Oh, I remembered! Akamai Technologies, Inc. is with them.
Pinging a localhost to the public is completely beyond my comprehension.
OpenBSD with their triple-checked repositories and packages... no, we haven't heard of it.
Give us a leaky Zoom... it's leaky, they constantly patch it. There's a lot of information in the public domain.
https://www.tomanthony.co.uk/blog/zoom-security-exploit-crack-private-meeting-passwords/
https://project-zero.issues.chromium.org/issues/42451378

And what exactly is "misinformation"? Everything is from open sources, I expressed my subjective opinion. If the pictures, as you say, are PR, then they prepared for the photo shoot like that. That is, they prepared strangely, in my opinion.
It is obvious that in many of their staff rooms they only have Windows, so their basic infrastructure for the operator is on Windows (and on laptops too). One operator only has Gnome (I could be wrong, I didn't check it exactly, poor quality).

 

[SirDice]

they constantly patch it

Sure, like every other respectable company ought to do.

And what exactly is "misinformation"?

Unknowingly spreading false information. You assumed the information is correct and propagated it. That's different from disinformation, when you knowingly spread false information.

Everything is from open sources, I expressed my subjective opinion.

As you said, it's subjective, and is the opposite of objective.

If the pictures, as you say, are PR, then they prepared for the photo shoot like that.

Those pictures are clearly PR and always prepared. Think about it for more than 2 seconds, would the DoD allow anyone with a camera to roam freely on their premises? Taking pictures of rooms filled with screens showing sensitive or potentially top secret information? Of course they don't.

It is obvious that in many of their staff rooms they only have Windows

You haven't seen all their staff rooms, there's this thing called survivorship bias. But besides that, walk into any company or organization and you'll see the majority (if not all) of their desktops are running Windows. That's still the undisputed king of desktop operating systems. Why would a government run organization be any different?

Desktop Operating System Market Share Worldwide | Statcounter Global Stats

This graph shows the market share of desktop operating systems worldwide based on over 5 billion monthly page views.

gs.statcounter.com

Additionally, the US government (and specifically its military branches) have certain certifications it requires before an operating system can be used in various scenarios. The run-of-the-mill Linux or BSD doesn't have those certifications, and therefor cannot be used in certain situations.

 

[USerID]

Why would a government run organization be any different?

Yeah, I get it, OK. I agree - they're all from the same corporate incubator. Just different chevrons.

The run-of-the-mill Linux or BSD doesn't have those certifications, and therefor cannot be used in certain situations.

Those. The concept of a desktop on Unix has failed. Sadness. If they (cyber-specialists) do not use Unix desktop, does it mean that the developments and popularization of Unix as a desktop over many years have failed? Or is it the Microsoft lobby? You understand, it is a shame... It is one thing when a cyber-security officer sits at the keyboard, and another thing when a newspaper and magazine layout designer sits at the keyboard.

So your paradigm is based on the fact that if I was not in all of their rooms (and I was not in any of them), then there is no subject of conversation either? But there is my subjective opinion, which is based on the official material of this organization and my subjective opinion has the character of brutal lies, ignorance, deceit and delusion? And to some extent, a conspiracy tint with elements of cognitive disorders is also possible. And what we see in the pictures is just a PR move, a theatrical production. Even if this is so (and maybe not, we were not really there), it turned out very lousy (again, my personal subjective opinion).

 

[SirDice]

The required DoD certifications costs money, lots of it. And you need to reapply for every new version you release. Microsoft certainly always applies for them. Certain commercial UNIX versions also do. It gets them access to very lucrative contracts. The run-of-the-mill Linux distribution and all the BSDs simply don't apply because its too costly to do so and they won't be able to make any money from it.

So your paradigm is based on the fact that if I was not in all of their rooms (and I was not in any of them), then there is no subject of conversation either?

No, I'm saying you're basing your opinion on incomplete information, what you're seeing in those public pictures is only a selection of what they have and use. Most of their software, computer systems, and other hardware you will never see or be aware of. You fell for a selection bias (and probably a bit of confirmation bias too).

And what we see in the pictures is just a PR move, a theatrical production.

It is. Doesn't exclude the existence of an actual operational cyber-security operations room though.

Even if this is so (and maybe not, we were not really there), it turned out very lousy (again, my personal subjective opinion).

What were you expecting to see? You understand that actual "hacking" and "cyber-security" work is excruciatingly boring? Certainly not cinematic, which is why it's often portrayed in movies using all sorts of weird and wonderful flashing screens, source code scrolling by, 3D renderings of "firewalls" being breached, etc. Nothing of that has any resemblance to actual facts.

 

[Phishfry]

But this is just nonsense!

That aint nothing. They just put Wifi on all bigger Navy boats for crew morale.
Think of the implications.

Letters home via FPO were often delayed to prevent ships movments from being broadcast.
Now we have this from a quasi gov org:

https://news.usni.org/category/fleet-tracker

 

[Phishfry]

What about swarms of drones? Real or fake? The new UFO reports?

They were seen around Hampton Virginia, where F-22 is based on East Coast, with not much local press coverage at all.

https://www.wavy.com/news/military/report-mystery-drones-fly-over-langley-for-17-days-now-dod-is-looking-to-protect-aircraft/

Military acts unconcerned... Maybe it is them? Dis-information or foreign mothership offshore?

People have eyes and see things..

Map details mystery drone sightings across US

Mysterious drones have been spotted in New Jersey and neighboring states, and Newsweek has mapped where they've appeared the most.

www.newsweek.com

 

[astyle]

May I point out that Microsoft is a US-based company? So by extension, it's probably not safe to use even that?

May I point out that Linux, while Finnish in origin, is developed primarily in the United States (The kernel is, at least) ?

May I point out that BSD's are all-American? (OpenBSD is Canadian, but that's close enough)

May I point out that DoD is a US institution?

Exactly what would be an approved, and functional alternative?

I do hate it when global politics get this ridiculous, especially when we're all using something that Uncle Sam's mighty army developed, and Al Gore paid for that development to even happen.

 

[USerID]

A bit of hype.
SirDice, thanks for the desktop statistics. statcounter: FreeBSD - 0%. That's impressive.
You have full forum statistics and a lot of experience working with the forum.
Even I (a newbie) can see that the "median" statistics here are sad. I didn't research the forum before registering based on statistics, because I can't do it exactly (mathematically). But I had thoughts that about 300-500 people would come to a banal "vote". But my observations (again irrelevant, so I'm talking about this in advance!) show that here, for example, there are only 14 people so far (help-me-to-choose-pc-or-laptop poll).
Perhaps there will be more over time, but it's unlikely that there will even be up to 30 people.

This is no longer a trend, it's a tradition. I'm not talking about views, but about active participation.

Poll 2024:
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/help-me-to-choose-pc-or-laptop.95955/
Another poll 2024:
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/...lease-that-you-still-use-in-production.95816/
Poll 2018:
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/what-is-your-primary-use-of-freebsd-poll.66354/
If you monitor, for example, one of the very popular Russian-language forums on the OS, then everything is even more sad there. Without immersing you in the details: in the "General on FreeBSD" thread, activity has practically dropped to absolute zero. Even the popular and popular "flame" (like off-topic here) stopped in 2018. I won't say anything serious (ZFS).
http://forum.oszone.net/forum-10.html
And these are the leaders of the rating, Windows 10:
http://forum.oszone.net/forum-118.html

The poll on "FBI" died on the rise (voted and wrote for 2 days):
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/poll-fbi-gov-runs-on-freebsd-6-2-good-practice.59193/

 

[SirDice]

This is no longer a trend, it's a tradition. I'm not talking about views, but about active participation.

The forums have 300-350 active users per day. With an average of 100-150 posts per day. Those numbers haven't changed in the past decade, they remain fairly constant, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. I've been here for 16 years, you 6 months.

 

[USerID]

What were you expecting to see? You understand that actual "hacking" and "cyber-security" work is excruciatingly boring? Certainly not cinematic, which is why it's often portrayed in movies using all sorts of weird and wonderful flashing screens, source code scrolling by, 3D renderings of "firewalls" being breached, etc. Nothing of that has any resemblance to actual facts.

I completely agree with you. That's right. That's not what I'm talking about. It would be extremely insane to install a scanner, put on a Guy Fawkes mask, or show the movie "The Matrix".
If you allow me, I'll expand my horizons a little.
As a participant and former employee of a state (note, state!) medical institution, I'll allow myself to reveal a little more information.
I wrote about Zoom. OK. But in the document for internal official use, this is what was written (I have no right to publish it here or anywhere else or forward it to third parties).
So, not only Zoom was banned here, but also Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Skype and everything else on the list. That is, government agencies could use ONLY and ONLY the "certified" domestic program. I even forgot the name. If I remember, I'll write it down.

Why does a military organization use the most vulnerable option (Zoom), and not use software from Cisco or Microsoft? Moreover, if there is a contract with Microsoft (Cisco), then it is more logical to use them, and not the school Zoom. Yes, it is patched. But the Zoom vulnerability database is orders of magnitude larger than the bug database from Teams or Webex.
Isn't it?
And yet, even at the photo shoot they did not show the best example that using the localhost ping under "admin" is a failure of the intelligence officer. I am with a share of irony and skepticism.

Think of the implications.

Consequences? Do you remember that funny incident in the US Navy, when instead of mechanical buttons and switches they installed a touchscreen on some remote control?
Everyone either got confused or did something bad. Then they returned everything back.
You know, it's like communications: it's one thing to have a hardware PBX from the 80s, which is hard to hack, and another thing to stick on a buggy and always leaky Elastix. If you set up Asterisk in a minimal configuration (not via the buggy Web), then your chances of survival still increase...

What about swarms of drones? Real or fake? The new UFO reports?

You have fun, we have even more "fun": this morning map. Where there are lights, it's not a UFO or the Burning Man festival. Someone was unlucky. Combat drones, "Kalibr" missiles and other junk. If you want, run for cover, and if you don't, don't run. There is a possibility of a combat drone (missile) landing on your balcony for everyone. We are used to it.

Exactly what would be an approved, and functional alternative?

They will approve at the highest levels. As everywhere. If a government official interferes with security, expect trouble. The main thing for them is "certificate", "license". No other arguments reach them. That's why at work I try to involve only a lawyer when drawing up a contract for supply and support. But... further I will show you which brands the state approves.

 

[USerID]

The forums have 300-350 active users per day. With an average of 100-150 posts per day. Those numbers haven't changed in the past decade, they remain fairly constant, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. I've been here for 16 years, you 6 months.

Yes, I don't doubt the statistics. I also saw that many users even after several years do not even show up for views (last seen). But the legacy of the forum is still great and useful.

 

[SirDice]

So, not only Zoom was banned here, but also Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Skype and everything else on the list.

They're all American companies and thus have to abide by US laws, that includes those sanctions.

And yet, even at the photo shoot they did not show the best example that using the localhost ping under "admin" is a failure of the intelligence officer.

Photographer: Can you act like you're doing something?
IO: Sure.
Photographer: That screen in the background looks a little bland, can it show something interesting?
IO: I'll open a command prompt and ping something. How's that?
Photographer: Perfect.

You know, it's like communications: it's one thing to have a hardware PBX from the 80s, which is hard to hack,

Those things were notoriously simple to hack. You never heard about it because it was kept quiet. They really didn't want to tell the world their equipment was faulty, that was the norm back in those days.

https://phrack.org/issues/3/9.html

https://phrack.org/issues/49/5.html

https://phrack.org/issues/43/15.html

 

[blackhole]

What were you expecting to see? You understand that actual "hacking" and "cyber-security" work is excruciatingly boring? Certainly not cinematic, which is why it's often portrayed in movies using all sorts of weird and wonderful flashing screens, source code scrolling by, 3D renderings of "firewalls" being breached, etc. Nothing of that has any resemblance to actual facts.

Yes it always makes me chuckle when some "code" scrolls up the screen and it's a bit of an HTML snippet.

In the most recent Mission Impossible film, the malignant "AI" is said to have "escaped into the cloud", which made me groan.

The "AI" in that case had to be given some kind of visuals, so it was a blue vortex like apparition. The average person can't identify with anything else. This goes for things "computing", for mass consumption. Apple, for example, could build a state of the art OS in the next few years, but in reality it's the "shiny" which sells those gadgets.

 

[kpedersen]

May I point out that Microsoft is a US-based company? So by extension, it's probably not safe to use even that?

May I point out that Linux, while Finnish in origin, is developed primarily in the United States (The kernel is, at least) ?

May I point out that BSD's are all-American? (OpenBSD is Canadian, but that's close enough)

Weirdly the only substantial OS that I would trust with no spying (rather than robustness) is RISC OS.

Yes, built in the UK but that certainly *isn't* why I trust it. Its more the fact that us old fuddy duddies can't get our crap together to do a decent job of spying. We are too worried about our dying healthcare system and our top 0.2% draining the country dry of any kind of funds

 

[astyle]

So, not only Zoom was banned here, but also Cisco Webex, Microsoft Teams, Skype and everything else on the list.

They're all American companies and thus have to abide by US laws, that includes those sanctions.

Now this is funny and nonsensical. Just think about it for a moment - American company products banned in Ukraine, by Ukrainian government, especially in the light of the fact that Uncle Sam is pouring billion$ into aid for Ukraine, and telling other countries to do the same. So, effectively, where are those sanctions even making rank-and-file feel the pain?

SirDice : Yep, American companies do have to abide by US laws. Yep, it includes sanctions. Except - those sanctions are definitely not aimed at Ukraine, y'know...

Compare that with what's happening in Russia - nobody gives a rat's ass about software piracy, and any kind of software is very unlikely to be really banned there...

 

[RGM-79N]

[Mod: Split off from https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-there-a-working-editor-for-f-or-scala.95990/]


I read a little of the forum for 2018-2022. --->>> Many people, one way or another, often have an old HDD under their desk with Windows loaded onto it. Such "canned food" saves when something is pressing. I have such "canned food" lying around, but I use it only for "compatibility" with government offices. Believe me, it's completely unrealistic to fight and prove anything to government agencies (tax, statistics service, pension fund, etc.). They only need the format of my request in MS Word, Excel. And this is just the beginning... I often earn extra money as a tutor. Even according to the school curriculum, I can't teach a schoolboy/girl the basics of Python without thonny-py311. Children must show the teacher a screenshot only from thonny. Anything else and deviation from the "program" approved by the Department of Education is heresy. It's not like this everywhere, but that's what I see.
I will never be able to process an Excel or Word file (received from the tax office) in LibreCalc/Writе because their files are simply too complex in structure. Libre will not be able to tame them. It is cheaper for me to get HDD with Windows from a dusty corner, fill in their super-table and get rid of them in 20 minutes. That's it. HDD kicked under the table, let it lie there.
Besides, I saw that system and network administrators of a large Internet provider also use Windows.
But this is not what the girl dreamed about on dark nights! Here is a link where the power of Windows is perfectly shown.
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2002047606/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003055634/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003048668/
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2002838940/
Can anyone tell me what kind of hardware stand they have? I give it a like. Thanks.
https://www.cybercom.mil/Media/Images/igphoto/2003428056/

For such tasks I always have bhyve vm with win10 and use it through FreeRDP, and got files through samba share

 

[USerID]

Weirdly the only substantial OS that I would trust with no spying (rather than robustness) is RISC OS.

What about Tails, which is so hyped up for hackers? It has a fat sponsor for 2023 in the form of the US government.

those sanctions are definitely not aimed at Ukraine, y'know...

I don't even get it yet, to be honest, what kind of US sanctions are in effect in Ukraine. What have we done wrong?
On the other hand, here's the promised file (*.ods)
https://cip.gov.ua/ua/news/perelik-...zultatami-derzhavnoyi-ekspertizi-u-galuzi-kzi
Here are listed the devices that have passed tests at the highest level (at the "state" level). Ideally, they can and should be used. Other devices are prohibited for security purposes. But this is a stupid idyll. Using this crap in the realities of life is both expensive and ineffective.
You can see the brands yourself. Of the Linuxes, Fedora is expired. Okay, maybe they didn't have time.
And where is FreeBSD, OpenBSD. You can use EOL on the basis of Fedora 36/37:

A software tool for encrypting data using a protocol
TCP Transport Layer Security protection
from the Fedora CoreOS 36/37 operating system

To put it simply - buy our Cisco! Well, buy it! Buy a support for hardware from Checkpoint. You don't need PF. We'll do everything for you. Previously, HP was on this list, but now it's not. And why? What happened to HP: did they fall so low that they don't meet the criteria for technical information protection? Has the concept of security changed in 1 year? No. Maybe sanctions?
Also on this list was Ubuntu LTS, Avast antivirus, ESET... the funniest thing is that the list also included expensive production-level routers from Chinese comrades - Huawei. Now even Chinese comrades are not our comrades. These are officials, politics and nothing but politics.

 

[kpedersen]

What about Tails, which is so hyped up for hackers? It has a fat sponsor for 2023 in the form of the US government.

I tried it fairly recently (I mainly just needed a livecd to test some hardware).

It was so bloated with random software I don't think I could ever call it "secure" to be honest.

 

[USerID]

random software?
Well, only on average in 2023 Tails received $307,763 in donations (this is a public figure) from their website. $215,000 from the state.
Tails live build is simply golden. But that's another big topic.
And the topic can be considered resolved and completed.
I saw the niche in which FreeBSD is located today.