Weird-looking PCs

astyle said:
So? even if it has wifi, you're not obligated to use it. Just don't connect it to your home net. And if it refuses to work based on that - buy something else. Yeah, takes some shopping and some thinking.
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Of course not. I never do. It was just a hint to how much more crap is stuffed into devices that don't bring any useful feature to the user (others may contradict, but to me it's of no use at all to start the washing machine or the dishwasher via net, nor to get info about it on the smartphone when the thing will be ready [while the estimated time left is almost always a lie {the last minute can last for up to ten minutes 🤪}]), but are only helping planned obsolescene.
But it's hard to get anything today without it.
App. next year we will need a new car. To me it's the horror, and I do everything to keep the one we have alive. Just try to find one that does not come with all the useless crap like navigation system (before somebody says it: We never use it. Besides to update the maps ain't for free, but can be really expensive [depending on the model] my wife only uses Google Maps with her smartphone [don't tell me neither; it's my world I'm living in]), electric seat and mirror adjustment, lane keeping system, beeping, ringing, cheeping, puling, screaming, whining, farting and burping constantly all the time, which all cannot be switched off...and that don't want you to register with your e-mail address... 🤬

Espionage724 said:
I got this case for my first gaming desktop in 2011
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I also had LAN parties. Great times. Long nights. Lots of fun.
But a PS1, or the according Nintendo, fitted completely into the backpack to all the rest needed for a weekend. All the host needed to provide was a TV. It was set up and ready to play in less than 3 Minutes, no need to config to a LAN. And anybody could be trusted to play with it, even at 2am even have had ten beers, without to worry something could be broken. 😎
 
There seem to be lots of people building wooden system cases, but the core electroncs are still silicon and standard fibreglass filled resin pcb's, the modern versions of FR4. There have been research efforts for some time to replace PCB's with printed electronics on paper or plastic film, for example see https://www.printedelectronics.com/

1761755783827.png


And to implement digital electronics in non-silicon substrates, such as this project to build an ARM cpu in plastic that was published in Nature (unfortunately paywalled)
www.nature.com

A natively flexible 32-bit Arm microprocessor - Nature

Flexible electronic platforms would enable the integration of functional electronic circuitry with many everyday objects; here, a low-cost and fully flexible 32-bit microprocessor is produced.
www.nature.com www.nature.com
which came from a collaberation between ARM and pragmatic (plastic logic have also done work in this area)\

Arm and PragmatIC create history with non-silicon chip | BusinessAT

businessat.co.uk businessat.co.uk

So far, these things are interesting but have critical limitations such as much lower operating clock rates than silicon, suggesting they may open new markets rather than replacing the current tech for mainstream computing itself.

The mainstream tech continues to be refined, for example these petabyte-class NAND flash devices from sk-hynix. Storage is getting pretty serious (or ridiculous, I don't know which is more apt) when you can have a petabyte in one or two chips inside your mini-pc (coming soon).
www.tomshardware.com

SK hynix unveils AI NAND strategy, including gargantuan petabyte-class QLC SSDs — ultra-fast HBF and 100M IOPS SSDs also in the pipeline

NAND for AI.
www.tomshardware.com www.tomshardware.com

And we can also point to the very high density of today's ultra-dense surface mount pcb's. Try spotting the resistors on a modern very high density surface-mount pcb; I don't know how much smaller they can make them. The replacement of parallel buses with high speed serial buses (eg pcie) was another major critical innovation.

The really big change in the last ten years or so has been the wholesale replacement of spinning rust with silicon, and I guess also the replacement of optical media with flash. There are no moving parts in a modern mini-pc (apart from the fan, if it has one). The material mass (and associated spoil heap) you need to build a desktop office pc that will suffice for 90% of users is a small fraction now of what it was in the 80s, if you think back to what was in an original IBM PC-AT. Don't even think about the replacement of CRTs with LCDs.

It's gone from this
1761757038822.png

to this
1761757087031.png


Which is pretty astounding if you stop and think about it. The magic of decreasing lithography line widths, aka moores law.
The juxtaposition of those two photos is the "weirdest" thing of all that I can think of in PC technology.
It goes without saying that the one in the lower photo is many times more powerful than the one in the upper photo.
Which has got to be a good thing if you think of the amount of e-waste produced and the pollution load generated by it's manufacure.

I think a bit like oled v. lcd, the mature tech will continue to be refined at a geometric rate and is unlikely to be replaced any time soon, but hopefully with a lower ecological load than in the past. Sooner or later they are going to hit the buffers in terms of ever smaller lithography.

And perhaps that's where the real innovation has been.:)

And the big question then is... what's happened with software in the same time period? Software is the real problem. There has been much less progress in software than in hardware; software is a much more difficult problem to crack. Hence the current AI investment bubble, which they are hoping will be the silver bullet they have been dreaming of for decades.
 
blackbird9 said:
electronics in non-silicon substrates
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While FR4 ain't really that eco-friendly, and there already are several other, even eco-friendly substrates to produce PCBs from (it's a question of who offers which technology, and as always the price), it ain't the main concern neither.
And to produce semiconductors on other bases than silicon have other reasons than silicon wasn't eco-friendly enough. Pure silicon ain't no problem to the environment.

The two main eco-problems with electronics are first with all the other materials needed:
copper, tin, silver, gold, aluminium, to just name the biggest ones.
Many elements are needed to dope the semiconductors (silicon), which are sometimes really rare, sometimes dangerous, sometimes both, sometimes even radioactive.
The liquids many capacitors contain are really harzadous.
All wire coatings contain several additives to soften the plastic, improve isolation, and above all decrease flammability, which is one of the biggest issues in electronics recycling at all, because many of those flame retardants are based on halogenes (chlorine.)
Plus several other elements in batteries, and tin-solder. After decades of hard fights we finally got RoHS, so we got rid of lead in solder, cadmium in batteries, and many other elements prohibited.
Varnish, potting compounds, adhesives, and above all plastic housings and coating of hundreds (thousands?) of kinds of plastics. If you read PE, PP, or PVC, those are all names for large families of different kinds of plastics, not respecting the additives like softener, color, flame retardant.
And more.

The second top eco-concern about electronics is not the materials used, but that it is a mix.
It's a high density packed mix of many thousands different materials, very hard to separate again (recycle.)

Which brings me to the conclusion we all already know:
Since it's almost impossible to avoid, or replace certain substances, and recycling is partially possible, but very expensive, and all what is done so far to improve the eco-friendliness of electronics does not by far compensate its bad impact on the environment,
the best we can do is to use electronics as long as possible, and not to buy even more in shorter times of this stuff.

But I pretty much rather like to see some more weird computers here. Best what you have, had, or build yourself. :cool:
:beer:
 
Maturin said:
Very nice!
That's one of the ideas I dream myself: A portable machine in a really robust, maybe even waterproof case. You don't need to worry when traveling. Besides you can have all the interfaces of a full mainboard you have lots of space for extensions, battery, and storage (multidrive raidz pools for example). And the capability to modify this modular machine. While with a commercial laptop you're almost fixed limited to what you bought.
Just as an idea: Consider to exchange the mouse by a trackball. It just takes the space it's placed on, but doesn't need no range to run in.
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I don't think I would want to play call of duty on a track ball. But I did cut a slot for the mouse in my latest case built. So it just goes in there when the case is closed. But I do like the look and space saving of a track ball. Just not for gaming. 😀
 
LibreQuest said:
I don't think I would want to play call of duty on a track ball. But I did cut a slot for the mouse in my latest case built. So it just goes in there when the case is closed. But I do like the look and space saving of a track ball. Just not for gaming. 😀
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all you need to do is install a decent Bluetooth/wifi card on the mobo... and amaze everyone:

"Bro is using actual freaking Bluetooth with that block of wood!"
 
Maturin said:
Uh, no. A shooter with a trackball actually sucks.
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I wonder if a different kind of trackball might make it better?

I've been trying for a while to make this usable:

nulea-m511-pro-very-cheap-ambidextrous-finger-ball-44mm-v0-y29PCks0WgfgmVyCf0wPn-hfMdQ79ihT7y...webp


But there's something about the L/R buttons that make that less-ergonomic with fast-paced stuff. It's otherwise a cool mouse!

This kind has it thumb-controlled and feels more like a mouse; I like it on-the-go:

perimice-517-wired-ergonomic-vertical-trackball-mouse-silent-click-469610.webp


I have a cheap one that works fine for casual use; I bought a $60 Kingston one with high reviews but couldn't quite get used to it.
 
Maturin said:
My #1 example at this point are printers.
The new models are advertised with lower energy consumption, and lower CO2 emission. While their production and transportation eat up magnitudes of what you will save in its lifetime.
You use it for two to three years. Then this bugger also starts to mither you with fantasy-error-bullshit, until after four or five years you are close to throw that annoying piece of shit out of the window. So you buy a new one. And of course - naturally - any of your cartridges left won't fit into the new one anymore. And maybe another cable is needed,... But it feels so very good to buy and have a new, smooth, errorless working device again.
Until in two or three years the shit starts all over again. While technically the device is tip-top. It could last ten, fifteen, twenty years - then saving resources, and CO2.
By now I don't know a single study estimates the price you pay with losing your peace of mind with all this mithering error BS.

But we have this in all devices today. Our car beeps, flashes, and brings the strangest error messages while everything is mechanically tip-top. Yesterday our dishwasher gave up. Five years - time to buy the new model, with WiFi, of course.
The car and the dishwasher still can be repaired. But if not I do buy new things. Of course. What else shall I do?
But I don't buy anymore from the same company (which is not the same as the brand.)
"Fool me once or twice, shame on you. Fool me three or more times, shame on me."
And I'm no fool. At least I try not to.
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You might buy the wrong stuff?
Our Dishwasher (Miele) had a five year warranty and has now been running without a hitch for 10 years.
Our car (a Tesla Model S which I would not buy again for unrelated reasons) came with a total bumper to bumper warranty of eight years, it approaches ten years now and has cost us next to nothing in maintenance, except for new tires.
The printers here are not the cheapest to buy, as they are all buiness-line "tank" ink-jets. Mostly, they last for a decade or so.

Where possible, I buy stuff with a long warranty. Warranty claims are expensive for the manufacturer and they design things to well outlast the warranty period. Another example: I bought a Miele washing machine which came with a ten year warranty (which is longer than some cheap machines last).

Computer relevance: I buy my laptops from Dell with a five year warranty, where I build myself I use components with long warranties.

TL;DR: while some cheap, disposable junk may be unavoidable, there are options in most cases. They may cost a little more initially, but can be cheaper in the long run.
 
recluce said:
Our Dishwasher (Miele)
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Our dishwasher is a Miele.
recluce said:
Tesla Model S
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As long as there are no battery cars batteries proven independently to have 80% nominal capacity left after 100k km with at least 800 km range nominal capacity, and there are no cars with quickly exchangeable battery packs, but fixed batteries, only, and we still get the majority of our electricity from coal and nuclear power plants, I don't fall for this pseudo-eco BS. I am too concerned about our environment to blow up our planet even faster by buying such a letter if indulgence, because industry can make much more money by fooling people into the believe battery cars would save the planet, while they just can sell more expensive cars in even shorter times emitting even more CO2. (I'm not to fancy explaining that again and again. Just learn about efficiency factors. And don't let you be fooled to look at the motor's factors. Look at the factors of batterys, chargers, transformers and current converters!)
Anyway I had never bought a Tesla. To me it was already obvious what kind of a guy Elon is.
recluce said:
printers
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My printer is a 14 years old professional Ricoh color laser and still runs reliable without mithering me with made up BS error messages. All I had in all this years with this genuine piece of hardware have been two, or three sheets of paper jammed. That's all.
I learned you either buy a professional one, or you don't need a printer at all but better use the local copy shop instead, fifteen years ago.
Printers are just my example for planned obsolescene - I made the experience myself several times until I learned. (Once I actually threw a printer out of the window. I can recommend that. It felt very relieving :cool:)
recluce said:
Warranty claims are expensive for the manufacturer and they design things to well outlast the warranty period.
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Industry does not design products to well outlast warranty periods. Products need to get over warranty as close as possible.
Anything lasting longer produces costs, and lowering revenue at the same time.
recluce said:
They may cost a little more initially, but can be cheaper in the long run.
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I am fully aware of that, too.
But besides times are long over when established brands stand for high quality - you simply cannot be sure to get high quality when buying a distinguished brand at a high price; in contrary best quality you get by unkown brands still struggling to get a foot into the market - many still buy cheap crap.
 
Espionage724 said:
I wonder if a different kind of trackball might make it better?
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No. A trackball is extremely nice for desktop, office or similar applications, or turn-based games, since you don't need to move them on the table, but they stay where they are, and it doesn't matter where they are placed.
But for shooters they really suck - because the move doesn't come from your arm.
 
i actually had one of this when it wasn't totally obsolete
disk spininng up sounded like a fighter jet
the ciss driver (or one of its ancestors panic-ed) so i hacked it to boot
it had pentium pro and eisa buss
the ciss was an eisa card
it also had some token ring eisa card which i kicked out
1761772138366.png
 
covacat said:
i actually had one of this when it wasn't totally obsolete
disk spininng up sounded like a fighter jet
the ciss driver (or one of its ancestors panic-ed) so i hacked it to boot
it had pentium pro and eisa buss
the ciss was an eisa card
it also had some token ring eisa card which i kicked out
View attachment 24068
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Barely lift it? wow. I remember seeing one of those in my early teen years at my middle school, and I never thought of it as particularly heavy. I was once horsing around the room with some classmates, and nearly knocked it off the table. Managed to catch it before it fell, and I put it back in its spot. But it did not feel particularly heavy, not that I remember... Could have been an empty case, or maybe I was one of the stronger kids in school... Considering that this happened in mid-1990s, my memory is rather fuzzy on specifics. It's just that seeing the photo jogged my memory - yeah, it was a Compaq ProLiant server that I nearly knocked off the table back then.
 
Crivens said:
Ok, I think I can throw this glove down. Try to find something more... absurd?
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"Built-in chicken chamber". That is indeed absurd in a computer.

Maturin said:
Okay, under "Weird-looking" I dare to throw something really weird looking into the pool.
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I worked in a corporate research lab, probably the biggest one in storage systems research. One of our prototypes was a RAID system, which used a custom-built controller. To mount the many disk drives, we used hanging file folders, with one disk drive in each folder, and those folders then hanging in a milk crate. It turns out that in the US milk crates (made out of plastic to hold bottles of milk for delivery) are exactly the correct size to also hold paper file folders.

We also had the other extreme, exceedingly overbuilt and fancy disk enclosures.
 
ralphbsz said:
It turns out that in the US milk crates (made out of plastic to hold bottles of milk for delivery) are exactly the correct size to also hold paper file folders.
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I took advantage of that, and happily took a few of those milk crates home when a local grocery store stopped using them! That happened about 20 years ago, but those crates are still in use around my place!
 
Jose said:
"...the fans themselves do not actually circulate the oil very much. We leave them running just because they were fun to look at..."
www.pugetsystems.com

Mineral Oil Cooled PC

History of Puget Systems mineral oil aquarium PC project from our earliest prototypes up through the do-it-yourself kits we offered for sale.
www.pugetsystems.com www.pugetsystems.com
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That link also mentions using vegetable oil for cooling! 🤣

Wonder what GPU tempura tastes like! 😂
 
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