Linux is invading my FreeBSD… 😖

The graphics stack AMD/Intel is kind of interesting; I'm not sure if it's really a concern or anything, but is there any efforts on BSD to not use Linux kernel stuff for graphics? (like drm-kmod)
 
First... I fail to grasp the relevance between certain mentioned open source projects and Linux. Wayland for example is released under the MIT license, not the 'dreaded' GPL which is fully related to the Linux environment. From what I can tell this also applies to Pipewire.

Still... this brings us to the second issue at hand: who exactly installed all these packages ? ;)

I mean... when I look at my FreeBSD environment then the inclusion of GPL licensed software is at an absolute minimum. My base system doesn't even use GNU diff.

It seems kinda silly to me to install certain software, then blame the OS for your choices. FreeBSD has "The power to serve", it doesn't bother to discriminate.

Don't like certain software? Then how about not installing it? ;)
 
ShelLuser said:
First... I fail to grasp the relevance between certain mentioned open source projects and Linux. Wayland for example is released under the MIT license, not the 'dreaded' GPL which is fully related to the Linux environment. From what I can tell this also applies to Pipewire.
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Wayland has no reference to Windows or macOS, and everything not those OSs had Xorg. Wayland is purely a Linux thing :p

Same with PipeWire; what other OS pushed PulseAudio, and then PipeWire if not Linux? Those two techs were pushed primarily as a benefit on Linux platforms. Yeah I guess Wayland isn't a Linux tech specifically and it's open code for anyone to implement, but :p
 
kent_dorfman766 said:
I fear that Linux will never again be free of Poetter-isms... sigh
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That is for sure. From a pure corporate point of view is not even that bad (disclaimer: I work for a company that runs on thousands of Linux installations and systemd helps us a lot with centralized management) but as a end user I moved to FreeBSD last year and never looked back.
 
Espionage724 said:
but is there any efforts on BSD to not use Linux kernel stuff for graphics? (like drm-kmod)
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And what should be done? Recently a tranche of money was received (about a million; if I'm wrong, correct me) to popularize laptops in the FreeBSD environment.
Precisely popularization of laptops in the FreeBSD environment, and not the other way around. :) So that laptops sell better. This is my subjective point of view.
Maybe they will give another million to create our own drivers, at least for graphics. For now, we receive drivers in a politically correct, political way through a layer (a political tool in the IT world) - Her Majesty the LICENSE. I don't think that anyone will want to voluntarily write drivers for video cards for us.
We depend on the Linux ecosystem in a political sense. And politics is the main thing for industries.
To be honest, I don't give a shit about "licensing and politicization".
This is, sadly, OVERREGULATION.
As they say in my country: "The state has overregulated people and institutionality". The author of the topic saw this policy in his own example.
I just didn't get it: well, the programs were reinstalled, so what? This often happens to me when updating. The programs crashed, just like the skyscrapers KDE, GNOME, XFCE recently crashed? No. OK.
Thanks if you read my nonsense to the end.
 
# pkg remove wayland

Code: 
Installed packages to be REMOVED:
    arandr: 0.1.11
    cppcheck: 2.17.1_1
    ffmpeg: 6.1.2_4,1
    firefox-esr: 128.6.0,1
    geany: 2.0_2
    geany-plugin-markdown: 2.0
    gnuplot: 5.4.10_2
    gstreamer1-plugins-gl: 1.24.8
    gtk3: 3.24.43
    gtk4: 4.16.5
    libplacebo: 7.349.0
    libva: 2.22.0
    libwpe: 1.12.0
    libxkbcommon: 1.7.0_1
    maxima: 5.47.0_17
    mesa-dri: 24.1.7
    mesa-libs: 24.1.7
    nvidia-driver-390: 390.154_1
    nvidia-settings: 535.146.02_1
    qgit: 2.9
    qt5-gui: 5.15.16p130
    qt5-help: 5.15.16p3_1
    qt5-printsupport: 5.15.16p130
    qt5-svg: 5.15.16p5
    qt5-widgets: 5.15.16p130
    vte3: 0.70.2_5
    vulkan-loader: 1.3.297
    wayland: 1.23.1
    webkit2-gtk3: 2.34.6_10
    wpebackend-fdo: 1.12.0
    wx30-gtk3: 3.0.5.1_5
    wxmaxima: 23.12.0,1
    xf86-input-keyboard: 1.9.0_6
    xf86-input-libinput: 1.3.0_1
    xf86-input-mouse: 1.9.3_5
    xf86-video-scfb: 0.0.7_2
    xf86-video-vesa: 2.5.0_3
    xorg: 7.7_3
    xorg-drivers: 7.7_7
    xorg-server: 21.1.14,1
    xpdf: 4.05,1

Number of packages to be removed: 41

By the hell how cppcheck can depend on wayland ?
:(
 
freezr said:
Am I on Debian/Linux or on FreeBSD? 🤷‍♂️
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FreeBSD has always pulled in the occasional bit of Linux shite as part of its various compatibility layers / attempts. You can also add crap from Rust to your list. Static or not, that is a mess at compile time.

Its only now that the Linux stuff is getting *so* dumb that you notice more. Once Wayland matures (or is abandoned) and leaves Xorg alone we will get to clean it up.

OpenBSD packages do tend to have more disciplined dependencies, so is a good fallback. That and aim to install packages into self-contained directories in i.e /opt so it doesn't spray your filesystem with more crap. A small example how to do this.
 
kpedersen said:
OpenBSD packages do tend to have more disciplined dependencies, so is a good fallback.
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There is no ZFS there.
And Wayland will be pushed through for money. Like Debian was pushed through for systemd. History in open source is developing in a spiral. Wayland under FreeBSD works fine today in a basic user environment (if without excesses, wrappers and other junk). I recently installed Fedora Sway Spin 42 - nothing special. Everything is the same as on FreeBSD. The scripts are crap, the keyboard layout did not work even with the native settings via Anaconda. The volume from the wireless keyboard (Fn-F2/F3) works out of the box. But this can be done without Fedora.
 
eseipi said:
cppcheck -> qt5-gui -> libxkbcommon -> wayland
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Ok, my question was not if it's technically possible, by following dependencies. My question is when software architecture fail and fall into too much interdependence ?

*BSDs are surely the last bastions of quality, intellectual rigor and resistance to marketing bullshit. Please don't import Linux dependency hell in FreeBSD.
 
USerID said:
There is no ZFS there.
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Or wine, or linux-emu or virtualbox or smbfs or nvidia drivers or... The list is endless.

Life is all about compromise ;)
USerID said:
And Wayland will be pushed through for money. Like Debian was pushed through for systemd.
Click to expand...
For Linux sure. Luckily we don't run Linux.

doul said:
*BSDs are surely the last bastions of quality, intellectual rigor and resistance to marketing bullshit. Please don't import Linux dependency hell in FreeBSD.
Click to expand...
It looks like the port is a little buggy and has incorrect defaults. cppcheck, being primarily command-line should not pull in Qt as a default option XD
 
doul said:
Ok, my question was not if it's technically possible, by following dependencies. My question is when software architecture fail and fall into too much interdependence ?
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Hmm, I just thought it makes sense that gui software depends on gui libraries and frameworks, hence my comment. But don't get me wrong, I have some strong opinions too about certain practices in software development in particular, and negligence towards wasting resources in general. The problem is that most people probably don't, so we're left to either try to make a difference at least for ourselves (often at the cost of significant compromises), or just accept the reality as is.

kpedersen said:
It looks like the port is a little buggy and has incorrect defaults. cppcheck, being primarily command-line should not pull in Qt as a default option XD
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I think it's a common practice in the ports collection rather than a mistake. Take for example irc/weechat:
Code: 
$ pkg rquery %Ok=%Od weechat
API=on
ASPELL=on
BACKTRACE=on
CHARSET=on
DOCS=on
GUILE=off
HEADLESS=on
ICON=on
ICONV=on
JAVASCRIPT=off
LUA=on
MANPAGES=on
NLS=on
PERL=on
PHP=off
PYTHON=on
RUBY=on
TCL=on
TYPING=on
ZSTD=on
Well, among other things, the port depends on 5 scripting languages by default! There is 3 more, so it could be even worse. I'm not sure, but looks like they are all needed just to support external modules, and not required by the client itself.

But what are the alternatives? Flavors? Imagine how it would look like in this case. I think the question is basically what audience to target. I certainly would love to see most options turned off, but others may not. Nobody knows the exact distribution, but it's reasonable to assume that an average user has less willingness to recompile programs than a power one.
 
kpedersen said:
FreeBSD has always pulled in the occasional bit of Linux shite as part of its various compatibility layers / attempts. You can also add crap from Rust to your list. Static or not, that is a mess at compile time.

Its only now that the Linux stuff is getting *so* dumb that you notice more. Once Wayland matures (or is abandoned) and leaves Xorg alone we will get to clean it up.

OpenBSD packages do tend to have more disciplined dependencies, so is a good fallback. That and aim to install packages into self-contained directories in i.e /opt so it doesn't spray your filesystem with more crap. A small example how to do this.
Click to expand...

I guess it would be a real pain to patch all the packages to reduce the amount of useless dependencies... 🤔
 
I used to use Linux. I chose FreeBSD because of all the available gnu programs. The good news is you won't have to worry about systemD showing up in ports. 😁
 
freezr said:
I guess it would be a real pain to patch all the packages to reduce the amount of useless dependencies... 🤔
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It needs to be a mindset really. OpenBSD and Alpine linux do a bit better here.

Actually, Red Hat does really well, keeping their packages light and bloat free. Though this is purely for a business decision, less complexity to have to support and maintain for their customers. They make good decisions and compromises which is rare in the Linux ecosystem (minus their weird views on witholding "our own" source-code behind a subscription).

There is also a technical challenge of specifically instructing auto-detection in autotools/cmake from pulling in detected libraries. If you have a very minimal system and compile a package like SDL2 or ffmpeg, you will end up with a different binary in terms of dependencies compared to someone with a messy system. I think Gentoo calls this "accidental linkage". It shouldn't happen but in reality, things are quite difficult. Really the issue is because package managers spray stuff all over the filesystem rather than encapsulate things.
 
freezr said:
I see it from the opposite side of the spectrum: if my system doesn't need it why it should be installed in the first place?
Click to expand...

Well, FreeBSD has config options in ports that often break these dependency chains. But only when you compile yourself. For the one-shot with default options for pkg a pick had to be made, and usually the default tends to pull in more stuff.
 
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Base system (OS plus OS related utilities/applications) vs third party applications.
Most of third party come from Linux, maybe need something from Linux (Poetter), maybe can be worked around.
If one likes/needs "that application" you need to either accept some Linux-isms or figure out BSD-isms around the Linux-isms.
"PC-BSD/TrueOS" tried to make *BSD based things but I think failed because of "one person developing/supporting".

My opinion is it comes down to your needed applications. They either work under *BSD (maybe without some Linux features) or they don't. Maybe some needed features can be easily ported to *BSD, but that requires someone to sign up for maintaining the port.
 
This is part of the reason I stick to a 'classical' X window manager and don't use one of the modern desktop environments. Even xfce pulls loads of gorp in, and kde and gnome pull just about everything in and the kitchen sink besides. Sticking to fvwm and/or windowmaker at least cuts some of the dependency hell down. Of course it can still fall apart when you install appications on top of that.
 
blackbird9 said:
This is part of the reason I stick to a 'classical' X window manager and don't use one of the modern desktop environments. Even xfce pulls loads of gorp in, and kde and gnome pull just about everything in and the kitchen sink besides. Sticking to fvwm and/or windowmaker at least cuts some of the dependency hell down. Of course it can still fall apart when you install appications on top of that.
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You can have a very stripped down system also with Wayland using labwc as the compositor. No pipewire, no pulseaudio, no display manager, way less that total 600 packages even with Libreoffice, Librewolf and a few other behemoths installed.
 
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