Flame bait: Why BSD is dying, or How I learned to stop worrying and love Linux

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caesius said:
That's supposed to be easy to use. Microsoft have even simplified the latest version so much that the user just prods his/her finger at coloured squares on screen.
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And I pretty sure they will win again because of that!
The scary things that Sheeple like it... less thinking, less problem...

Windows 9 probably would be simplified to 5 big buttons:

[Pron]
[Eat]
[Entertaiment]
[What other likes]
[I want that too]
 
There is a subsection among Linux fans who prefer a Ports like approach. The Gentoo Linux people, for example.

Here is what I see as REALLY GOOD about FreeBSD:

- BSD is perfect for tinkerers. That's me.
- BSD and Ports are the most powerful way to move (over time, with a gradual learning curve) from "I can install any software I want" to "I can not only install, but also modify, any software I want".
- Ports encourage minimalism (binary distributions of Linux are maintained/patched more aggressively)
- Ports encourage simplicity (notwithstanding how gross autoconf and all that crap is under the hood)
- Source code is important. Ability to work with source is important for real world systems that will last 1000 years.
- Unix values, and ideals and traditions are all present in the BSD-flavors of Unix, and are mostly a sensible way for high-tech users to work.

Neither any BSD nor any Linux (Sorry Ubuntu) will EVER be user friendly enough to compete with Mac.
And frankly Windows isn't user friendly either. It's a binary-only hell, actually. It's just an "Acceptable Hell" for a lot of people, because it has a lot of games, a lot of commercial software, and is a huge installed base in corporate computing.

Frankly, I like working in Linux. But I also like BSD. I actually like BSD better, but I think both are great in their way. BSD (and certain Linux flavors like Gentoo and Debian) are great for tinkering. BSD is for learning. BSD is an ecosystem for sustainable computing that keeps the hacker ethic alive.

Sadly, Linux is far ahead of BSD on Laptop wifi support, but both are pathetic at video card support.
I don't blame Linux or BSD for either of those problems. Those problems are because the hardware vendors don't care enough about Linux or FreeBSD. Windows is a pile of binary sludge that you will never understand. Linux binary-only distros end up becoming more like Windows than like FreeBSD or source-oriented Linux distros. In the end, the source is your friend. Even if you are not the one reading it. It's good to be able to get some Hacker who CAN read the source to fix your problem. If people ever start to realize that, then the FreeBSD approach will start to gain more traction. As it is, binary turnkey systems are fit for content consumption and purchasing, not for "hacking".

"If my life is for rent,
And I don't learn to buy...
I deserve nothing more than I get.
For nothing I have is truly mine" -- Dido (Life For Rent)

I think that this philosophical difference between those who slide through life without really
making a more shallow commitment to computing. It's a "rental" mentality. I understand the "I just want it to work" mentality, but I see it as something entirely different than the "hacker" mentality.

Hackers build, explore and understand, consumers just consume content in walled gardens that turn them, and the rest of the members of their herd, into automatons who simply shell out coins the way us kids used to pump quarters into Space Invaders machines at the arcades in the 80s.

FreeBSD is important. Linux is great. But FreeBSD is something else.

Warren
 
wpostma said:
Sadly, Linux is far ahead of BSD on Laptop wifi support, but both are pathetic at video card support.
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You're joking right? Linux Wi-Fi is the biggest hack job I've ever seen. iwconfig? Really? Also scroll through the default hostapd.conf ... most of those options aren't relevant to FreeBSD since the BSD Wi-Fi stack deals with many of those details. I also think you overlook the efforts of the OpenBSD project. The Wi-Fi support gap between the BSDs and Linux is probably quite a bit smaller than you think.

There's no distinguishable difference between Linux and BSD to the experienced Unix user. But as a developer, Linux feels somewhat like a hack job.

For example, I love string parsing for system information in C and C++ programs!
 
I bet iwconfig will go away in Linux when Lennart decides it's outdated and obsolete :p Fun times for everyone who wrote their little scripts to configure wireless using iwconfig.
 
kpa said:
I bet iwconfig will go away in Linux when Lennart decides it's outdated and obsolete :p Fun times for everyone who wrote their little scripts to configure wireless using iwconfig.
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And how would they configure Wi-Fi in Linux then? They have like 2-3 different utilities to configure different aspects of Wi-Fi. It's a blackeye to Linux. FreeBSD at least has seamless integration of Wi-Fi into ifconfig. Sam and Adrian did/do a great job!

That said, Network Manager sure hides the blackeye from users.
 
nslay said:
And how would they configure Wi-Fi in Linux then? They have like 2-3 different utilities to configure different aspects of Wi-Fi...
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They will all be merged into the upcoming systemd plugin which tries to configure every wlan in reach...
 
I honestly think Linux is no longer a Unix-like system or, perhaps, won't be called that anymore soon the way they are doing things. I think it will become a kernel of its own but, with so many distros, the fragmentation just may do so much damage as to put it in peril.
 
I'm a small bit bored and calm.

Earlier someone had mentioned speed in this thread. Currently, the Linux kernel cannot go over 1000 hertz- There are patches for it to do 2000 hertz but they are for an older kernel and are not considered stable- while FreeBSD can run at 2500 hertz without breaking a system.

The article itself stated it was a bit of humor.


The BSD family of operating systems remain a constant research project. Do not take this statement in a negative way.


Blah blah.
 
At the moment I changed my desktop to Linux because of two reasons:

  1. I want to do some Android development and on FreeBSD the tools failed to work properly.
  2. I want the new Gimp 2.8 very badly, because I need to edit photos.

I want to return as soon as possible, because Linux is really painful (and getting more and more painful, but I knew it already when I started to use it). Everything is broken with systemd (cannot even turn it on or my PC hardware will behave very weird, even when the PC is off(!) and I cannot find out why). On FreeBSD, I understand the basics and everything just works.

I have a reason to choose FreeBSD. It's because I like how the ports developers handle applications. At the moment many applications lag behind Linux. Earlier Linux lagged behind FreeBSD, when I first chose to install FreeBSD (4.3). Like I said... the most important (for me) are applications. And they need to be fresh.

I have been also optimistic that I could try out Gnome3 on ArchLinux. But I think that this software is not even portable to Linux and works only for Fedora. Whatever... I changed my desktop to Openbox and I am happy with it. Since Openbox works perfectly on FreeBSD, it is not the desktop itself which keeps me on Linux.
 
nakal said:
At the moment I changed my desktop to Linux because of two reasons:

  1. I want to do some Android development and on FreeBSD the tools failed to work properly.
  2. I want the new Gimp 2.8 very badly, because I need to edit photos.

I want to return as soon as possible, because Linux is really painful (and getting more and more painful, but I knew it already when I started to use it). Everything is broken with systemd (cannot even turn it on or my PC hardware will behave very weird, even when the PC is off(!) and I cannot find out why). On FreeBSD, I understand the basics and everything just works.
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OpenBSD 5.2 has Gimp 2.8.0, I've been trying it out on my desktop the past few days and it's not that much different than FreeBSD. I don't know if it will fill your Android needs though.
 
Last I checked the list of supported Wifi Chipsets on Linux was far larger. That's what I mean about Wifi Support. (Can we all agree that some people love this, and some people love that, and that we're here to talk about FreeBSD? KTHXBYE)

Warren
 
There are some hacks which are necessary to get certain things running on linux both on kernel and drivers, backtrack comes to mind. But that's an extreme exception. I don't think anyone with a clue should be running backtrack as main desktop or server.

But yeah... I forgot what are we talking about.
 
I won't discuss hardware support, because I buy only hardware that is explicitly supported. I don't buy Nintendo cartridges and complain that they are not supported by my Playstation 2, either.
 
wpostma said:
Last I checked the list of supported Wifi Chipsets on Linux was far larger. That's what I mean about Wifi Support. (Can we all agree that some people love this, and some people love that, and that we're here to talk about FreeBSD? KTHXBYE)

Warren
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But... but ... but this is the Flame bait: Why BSD is dying, or How I learned to stop worrying and love Linux thread.

You can't just come in here and troll words like KTHXBYE! Have some netiquette for crying out loud! Think... Just think of the children. Your lack of moral aptitude is just plain disconcerting. I quit! Going back to windows 98. kthx... bye!

/sarcasm
 
wpostma said:
Last I checked the list of supported Wifi Chipsets on Linux was far larger. That's what I mean about Wifi Support. (Can we all agree that some people love this, and some people love that, and that we're here to talk about FreeBSD? KTHXBYE)

Warren
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Far larger? I can't even tell if it's even slightly larger ...

See for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_wireless_drivers#Linux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-source_wireless_drivers#OpenBSD

I mean ... it's not FreeBSD, but you do pay attention to the other BSDs right? I mean, there was supposedly even a time when OpenBSD Wi-Fi support surpassed Linux's. So is it any surprise that, for example, OpenBSD's list is comparable to Linux's?

And, oh boy, I often come across PRISM, Texas Instruments, and other unusual/antique chipsets ... and not the usual Atheros, Ralink, Broadcom, or Realtek chipsets (all of which FreeBSD supports, and more).

You're better off making your case with TV capture cards or something ... not network hardware.
 
AlexJ said:
And I pretty sure they will win again because of that!
The scary things that Sheeple like it... less thinking, less problem...

Windows 9 probably would be simplified to 5 big buttons:

[Pron]
[Eat]
[Entertaiment]
[What other likes]
[I want that too]
Click to expand...

It will also feature a voice assistant "Ook" which the user can grunt at instead.
 
The only reason why I have chosen Kubuntu for PC at work is binary packages. I cannot afford spending hours to update tools like Gimp or browsers or DE. However, now the pkg-ng tools brings new possibilities:
  1. I can use official binary repository for packages. Well, it doesn't get updated quite often. Probably because it's still beta.
  2. I use SSH connection to login on home PC and start building packages for the own repo in jail. Then I just do # pkg install anytime I want to upgrade anything. I think I could use this repository at work together with the official one in the future.
 
nakal said:
... Everything is broken with systemd (cannot even turn it on or my PC hardware will behave very weird, even when the PC is off(!) and I cannot find out why).
Click to expand...

You may want to contact thisGuy.
 
What has happened recently in the Linux realm, what has broken, what does malfunction so badly? I can not find another explanation for all this trollfensive...

/waterhose
 
Martillo1 said:
What has happened recently in the Linux realm, what has broken, what does malfunction so badly? I can not find another explanation for all this trollfensive...
Click to expand...

That's because it's partially a political problem. Lots of emotion vested in this one.

Lennart Poettering threw down the gauntlet over the startup system.

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-August/029681.html

It spawned more than zero flame wars on the matter.

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-May/026724.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-June/026791.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-July/028440.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-July/028705.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-July/028748.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-July/028900.html

https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-August/029178.html

The TLDR version is that as the efforts of shops like RedHat try to turn Linux into a commodity similar to a Windows server, there is resistance from those, like the Arch community, who had BSDisms like rc scripts, and the crap hits the fan.

Startup systems are not the only point of contention here but it was a recent and meaningful enough one that it garnered some attention.
 
I believe that if software developers need productive users should not worry about the lack of communication, it is obvious that this is a problem of adequately promote interest of users, those looking to learn how things work from 0. No benefit at all, criticizing what others do, it is better to do and leave the rest. The FreeBSD operating style is the benchmark for the whole community. This thread can serve as a weapon for those who still seek to question the real interests that we served. All these conclusions will serve to update the already well-known http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/whyusefreebsd.html.

One thing I would add, by the way, is the BSD license, which from the legal point of view is a great precedent, the question of permissibility, so that you can leave your open source or commercial products like pfsense, provided to respect its three essential freedoms:
- The first freedom is to use the program.
- The second to be able to modify the program.
- The third to distribute the modified program or not.
Click to expand...

BSD software applies sell while respecting these three freedoms, so we tend to not charge for the program itself, but for services that involves: installation and maintenance mainly.
 
Good point about the BSD license. I've learned to "tolerate" the GPL. Whereas, I actually LOVE the BSD license.

I guess you could say that about the design of FreeBSD from top to bottom. I just like it. The more I learn about it, the more I like the decisions that were made in its construction.

Warren
 
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