Advice on WINE

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

I have recently made the following post in another forum (edited):

Greetings all,

Motivation

In the past several months my laptop, running Windows XP, has been afflicted four times by a virus, three times while behind a corporate firewall and under auspices of corporate IT. Even the IT people had to deal with two of the viruses by re-imaging the hard-drive, and restoring data. As I do not work in the corporate world anymore, last time I had to do it myself. After restoring everything to working condition I changed anti-virus software to AVIRA, supposedly the best rated anti-virus software for 2008 - with the result of the software blocking some of the web-sites I need.

From perusing the Internet, it appears that two arguments are made in this regard for non-Windows software: (1) inherently safer design, and (2) smaller base of "naive", i.e., non-corporate users, which makes it more profitable for hackers to write malware against computers running Windows. Please let us not turn this thread into an argument re (1), I do not have enough knowledge to resolve it, but (2) appears rather convincing to me.

Additionally, please let us not discuss basic precautions as firewall, anti-virus software, not-opening e-mail attachments from unknown origin, not visiting shady web-sites, etc. First, I have been practicing that, second, my FreeBSD general purpose computer/server, which I have been using in similar manner for years have never been affected.

Consequently, I have been thinking bout moving away from Windows even on the laptop, and, as summarized in Other Consideration section below, Linux appears to be the most likely option.

Necessary requirements

1. Stability, which I define as an ability of the OS/Application environment to run in a consistent manner each session. Thus, no memory leaks, no random application crashing, no incompatibility issues caused by unnecessary (for me) cutting edge features. (As an example, of some of the above the AVIRA application turns itself off from time to time, without leaving any log to let me determine why).
2. Security. As the computer will be used to work on my clients' documents, it needs to be as secure as reasonably possible, i.e., firewall, non-essential services turned off, and the like.
3. Excellent WINE integration/implementation. I need Word, Exel and PowerPoint because all my clients expect the work product in these formats.
4. Painless wireless set-up because on customers' premises I need to be able to connect into their open wireless networks. Something that would match OS X would be a (probably unachievable) dream.
5. Print support.
6. Flash, which is used by some web-sites I need to access. I am web-browser agnostic if it matters, as long as it cooperates with the OS.
7. Skype because it is preferred by some customers for communication.
8. TIFF support.

Desirable

1. Preferably LDXE, Open Box, Flux Box insted of GNOME, KDE, XFCE. First I am very comfortable with the former running it on my FreeBSD computer, and second, I do not need the latter functionality/bloat.
2. Multimedia support, at least for listening to music and perhaps for occasional DVD viewing.
3. Painless GnuCash installation.
4. As a minimal installation as possible. First, I have limited hard-drive estate (5GB), which I do not want to change due to the (in)famous Error 2010, (this is T43), at least until I am satisfied with this proof of concept. (But if anyone is willing to donate small unused 40-60GB PATA, I can relax this requirement ;-) ). Second, I do not see any reason to have packages installed that I will never use, i.e., various localizations, eye-candy, etc.

Unnecessary

Any cutting edge gadget support - tablets, eye candy - COMPIZ, conky, games, etc.

Other considerations

I have been considering OS X, but I would prefer to avoid it, due to relatively high costs. Further, some of the desirable packages (GnuCash) are not available, and I had no luck to install them from sources. Although OS X is supposedly based on FreeBSD, which I have some experience with, I find OS X administration, i.e., the non-standard application installation confusing.

I used to have Debian installed by my friend, the installation being stable in the above-stated definition. However, after upgrading hardware, I was never able to make it perform as flawlessly as my friend's install. I tried CentOS, which is supposed to be very stable, but could not install the required/desirable desktop applications - I had problems with finding the packages and when I tried to compile them, I had library compatibility problems. I was successful with Ubuntu, but did not like it (no offense to Ubuntu meant).

Then someone suggested FreeBSD, which I fell in love with, never having any problems. Regretfully, FreeBSD does not satisfy some of the requirements - no native flash, non-native Skype, etc. I do not think that I want to run them in compatibility layer.

I really like Opensolris, perhaps due to my FreeBSD background, but again, some of the applications are not yet as easily installable as FreeBSD's ones.

Consequently, I was wondering if - based on the foregoing - I should attempt to switch, and if so, to which OS. Additionally, if someone were from San Diego area, or could assist me, e.g., via network with the initial set-up, I would appreciate it. I believe that once I had a stable installation, there would be no need to change it, and I can replicate it on my other computer for learning purposes.

Thank you,

M

As you can see, I have ruled out FreeBSD for lack of flash. But, today I had an epiphany; since I do need to run WINE, why not run a web-browser under WINE also?

So my questions are:

1. Will MS Office work under WINE in FreeBSD?
2. Will any of the web-browsers work under WINE in FreeBSD?
3. Is there anyone who has done 1. and 2. above who would be willing to help if I get into problem? (I have never used WINE).

Thank you,

M

[BlueJayofEvil]

Hello and welcome to the FreeBSD forums!

1. Which version of MS Office specifically? A good place to check for compatibility in WINE is the WINE App Database. The link for MS Office directly is here.
I can't comment from experience as I do not have nor use MS Office (except at work.)

2. Firefox, Opera, and some others work in WINE. You can even use Flash in WINE (although it's not 100% perfect, it works.)
There's also some information in a few other threads (don't have links at the moment) that explain how to use Linux compatibility to achieve semi-native Flash on FreeBSD.

3. WINE is often hit-and-miss for many apps and also varies by platform and hardware (e.g. Linux and Nvidia graphics hardware might do better than FreeBSD and Intel graphics hardware.)
To help out better, we'd need to know what your hardware is, what version of FreeBSD you plan on using, WINE version, etc.

P.S.- If you do need to use WINE, it currently only works on 32-bit FreeBSD.

I hope this helps you some.

[tbyte]

FreeBSD have flash 10 using nspluginwrapper and linux flash 10.

[mefizto]

Gentlemen,

thank you for the welcome and the replies.

BlueJayofEvil,

1. As this is crucial requirement, I will pay for whichever version works, saying that, I do have Office2000 already. Thank you for the links, but my understanding is that FreeBSD implementation is not equivalent with the one for Linux, and most testers used Linux. That was, why I was wondering if someone had first-hand experience.

2. Good to know that the web-browsers work under WINE. My understanding is that the Linux compatibility layer works on some hardware and not on other, and if I already have to use WINE . . .

3. The hardware is, at least currently for the proof of concept T43:

Intel Pentium M 750 (1.86GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 533MHz FSB)
14.0" SXGA (1400 x 1050) display
5GB, 5400 RPM Hard Drive
1GB DDR2 SDRAM
CD-RW/DVD-RW (CD 24x Read, 16x Write) (DVD 3x Read, 2x Write)
Ports: 2 USB 2.0, 1 ExpressCard slot, 1 PCMCIA card slot, 56K Modem, Ethernet LAN port, PS2 port, headphone jack, microphone jack, parallel port, VGA out port
ATI X300 Graphics Card with 64MB RAM
Intel PRO/Wireless 2915 802.11 a/b/g internal wireless card

Regrading the version of FreeBSD, I am not sure. I have been using FreeBSD starting with v. 6.something, currently I am at 7.2. The 8.0 looks very enticing on paper, but I am rather worried about .0 versions, especially seeing the number of beta and candidate releases 8.0 has gone through so far.

Please do not forget that this will be "production" computer, not one for experimenting with features.

tbyte,

It is my understanding that the nspluginwrapper is plagued with similar issues as Linux compatibility layer.

Kindest regards,

M

[tbyte]

Originally Posted by mefizto

Gentlemen,
tbyte,

It is my understanding that the nspluginwrapper is plagued with similar issues as Linux compatibility layer.

Kindest regards,

M

It works for me on every hardware I've used and I have about 6 FreeBSD desktops at home and office. So it pretty much works and that's 7.2-S not 8.x
And the only issue I have (not that it's not very annoying) is that no linux 3D (OpenGL/nvidia) application works. So no 3D linux games which is very annoying but I can live for now with it

[Oko]

Originally Posted by mefizto

Thank you for the links, but my understanding is that FreeBSD implementation is not equivalent with the one for Linux, and most testers used Linux.

Wine is very buggy peace of software. Of course it doesn't work the same on Linux and FreeBSD as they have different kernels and Wine has to use system calls. It
doesn't work at all for instance on OpenBSD (even though it compiles fine) because OpenBSD is unforgiving and doesn't tolerate Wine bugs.



My frank advice for you based on your posts is that you continue to use Windows as most applications you have to run are specific for that operating system. That doesn't mean that you are out of luck when it comes to security. You could get nice fan-less miniITX board (used Soekris goes for under $30 on Ebay). Install OpenBSD. Set up PF and continue business as usual. Note that FreeBSD implementation of PF lacks behind OpenBSD and is not complete due to the deficiencies of the FreeBSD network stack.

Best,
Oko

P.S. Wine after 10 years of development is at best beta quality software.
By the time it becomes stable Windows 7 will brake backward compatibility and you will not be able to run Windows software on Wine.

[fronclynne]

Originally Posted by Oko

P.S. Wine after 10 years of development is at best beta quality software.

That would indicate to me that it is a faithful implementation, at least.

Expecting a windows compatibility layer to be bug free would be like expecting a Saab 92 repro to not belch blue smoke.

[mefizto]

Gentlemen,

once again, thank you for your responses.

tbyte,

if I decide to proceed as suggested below, would you be willing to help if I have problems with the nspluginwrapper?

oko,

I understand what you re saying, and trust me, I am not trying to use an OS for OS's sake, I am trying to solve prticular problem - OS's malwre vulnerability. Your solution, of course, works at home, but we are talking about a laptop here. Also please note that the only functionality required is Word, Exel, and PowerPoint.

Considering the above, what would you thing about the following solution: install XP into a jail under some virtualization software, and disable all services connecting to Internet? I know that I may sound paranoid, but it is no fun to having to re-install OS from scratch, restore files from backup while under time pressure needing to deliver to the customer.

Could you please point me to a suitable Soekris board for home use? Currently, I use my main computer, which must be on if I want to work on the laptop.

Kindest regards,

M

[tbyte]

Originally Posted by mefizto

Gentlemen,

once again, thank you for your responses.

tbyte,

if I decide to proceed as suggested below, would you be willing to help if I have problems with the nspluginwrapper?
[skip]

I saw a HOWTO for nspluginwrapper and flash 10 by somewhere on the forums. It should be more than enough as I didn't needed any howtos, it's simple enough

PS: Found it: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=5786

[hedwards]

To be perfectly honest, probably the best way to get an answer would be to just install it and see how it goes. The main reason being that from time to time there'll be a bug that effects one area of a program and not others, and it's entirely possible that something you need isn't working.

It's also worth mentioning that as Codeweavers gets closer to releasing the FreeBSD version of Crossover office in a non test form, the likelihood of a given bug being fixed will go up somewhat as they go to fix bugs for customers.

P.S. It's a real shame that clients expect those formats, DOCs in particular shouldn't ever be distributed as they represent a security risk as well as being somewhat unreliable when shared between versions of MS Office.

[mefizto]

Dear tbyte,

thank you for the link.

Dear hedwards,

thank you for the information about Codeweavers, that may be worth a wait.

Kindest regards,

M

[kpedersen]

I do find that sometimes Openoffice actually turns out to display .doc files more "correctly" than Office 2000 running in WINE.

I put this down to some odd font problems in WINE and I assume it's rendering isnt 100% accurate either. Openoffice however is designed (among other things) to be a decent .doc editor whereas WINE is a bit hacky.

Btw, I found that Office 2000 and 97 to be the only ones that can run on FreeBSD WINE without.... fiddling lol

Hope this helps.

[rhyous]

So, if you want this as a desktop have you considered/tried to run PC-BSD?

Last I tried, flash was working in its latest release by default. It is basically just FreeBSD already tweaked for a desktop environment.

[TzunTzai]

Yea, give PC-BSD a run for ultimate FreeBSD Desktop usage. No worry install and PCBSD 8.0 is a nice improvement! (I'm running 8.0-Alpha right now! Nice!)

[rhyous]

And it really is FreeBSD underneath. You can still do anything to it that you can to a normal FreeBSD box as far as I know.

[DutchDaemon]

Isn't the ports system kind of at odds with PC-BSD's PBIs (installing in different places and such)?

[mefizto]

Dear kpedersen,

I have tested the OpenOffice, and I have about 80% success with the compatibility. It is the 20%, formatted with equations, tables, and the like, that have problems. That is why I cannot completely rid myself of Office.

Dear rhyous, TzunTzai,

I am used to build the FreeBSD from ports, and I understand that PC-BSD uses something resembling Windows (PBI?). Will I have a problem?

Kindest regards,

M

[TzunTzai]

Yep. PC-BSD 8.0 now offers a "Ports Console" which I think provides the ability to install/run ports/packages inside a "jail" which completely separates any manual installation from the standard PC-BSD PBIs. Which is great actually. PBIs, ports, and packages used to interfere with each other.

PC-BSD is great! Just wish they offered a choice of Window Manager or Desktop during installation. KDE is their standard... becoming more and more bloated per release. Ah well... FreeBSD is good for me.

Although, PC-BSD has a built in network management system that walks all over wpa_supplicant.conf. Hopefully someone ports Network Manager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetworkManager) to FreeBSD soon.

Originally Posted by DutchDaemon

Isn't the ports system kind of at odds with PC-BSD's PBIs (installing in different places and such)?

[TzunTzai]

You shouldn't have any problems at all. As a matter'a fact, I'm pretty impressed with how "up to date" PC-BSD keeps the PBIs. There's a nice PC-BSD community that works to keep things current.

.PBI are to PC-BSD what .EXE or .MSI are to Windows. They're PCBSD's version of an all in one installation file.

You can search the PBI directory for existing software. You can also visit the PC-BSD forum to put in PBI requests... or if you have experience building ports, you can even create your own PBI!

http://www.pbidir.com

Originally Posted by mefizto

Dear kpedersen,

Dear rhyous, TzunTzai,

I am used to build the FreeBSD from ports, and I understand that PC-BSD uses something resembling Windows (PBI?). Will I have a problem?

Kindest regards,

M

[rhyous]

I don't think ports are at odds with PBI.

Yes, it is probably not best to install and application through ports and through a PBI, though as mentioned they are working on making that a non-issue.

PC-BSD is targetting users who maybe aren't quite at the compile every application from source level and may not even be at "comfortable at the command line" level.

Also, PBIs install a lot faster than compiling from ports.

So they are addressing a completely different need.

When I build a server, I use FreeBSD and ports.
When I build a desktop, I use PC-BSD and PBIs (and only use ports when a PBI doesn't exist, which is getting more rare).